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Event Name: BBC Interview: 5 Live
Transcription Date: 4/9/2019
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On five line, Sheikh Hamza Yusuf has been described in the press as the most influential Islamic scholar a convert to Islam.  He's the founder of the Zaytuna Institute in California which seeks to

educate people about the Muslim faith.  He has also been described by one newspaper as President Bush's pet Muslim.  You're very welcome on our program this morning

Thank you very much indeed for coming in are you President Bush's link to the Muslim world.  Have you been that

no no I think after September 11th I was the Muslim that was invited in to discuss the situation with him so I think there was a lot of misunderstanding about that that came out of that but in fact you know I think it's quite the opposite

you were responsible they were changing the name of operation infinite justice

Right I did bring that up in that meeting.  that infinite justice was and I think Christians and Jews and any other monotheistic traditions would certainly consider infinite justice a blasphemous

concept the idea that somehow that

America has infinite capacity for being

yes yes that kind of control-freak Reid

doesn't tend to well yeah I think the

response that was the president said

that we don't have theologians in the

Pentagon and I think that that would

probably be kind of an interesting idea

to maybe bring some theologians in to

discuss things because it seems like the

moral the moral case is very weak you've

said some very interesting things about

where Islam is at the moment and the

fact that you believe it's experiencing

quite a dark age why well I would say I

would say that the Muslims in a sense

are going through a particularly

difficult time I think that the the

Muslims were very successful

civilization and people for centuries

and and in a way it's difficult for us

in the West to to kind of imagine how

the scenario was because for many many

centuries it was in fact the

Muslims that were the enlightened people

and the people of education erudition

and and right now in in this

post-colonial period that's been going

on for some time and the decline of

Islam was going on for a very long time

but the the the post-colonial period is

particularly painful because not only

were the institutions dismantled during

the colonial period educational

institutions so scholars for instance in

the Muslim world we we really are

suffering from the dearth of scholars in

the Muslim world and because of that a

lot of people that are not trained or

educated theologically or in Islamic

jurisprudence have suddenly become these

spokesmen for the Islamic tradition and

very often their their extreme in their

views and these views are put forward

somehow as being mainstream Islam which

it's it's like taking something like

David Koresh from from Waco Texas and

saying that he represents mainstream

Christianity was that what had happened

with the Taliban because I know that the

worst so what I got is who believed that

they were actually not forward-looking

and they had used an interpretation that

was really quite backwards well I think

that the Taliban I personally I really

feel that the Taliban it was an attempt

at just stabilizing an incredibly

destabilized condition and I think that

for instance you know this we often saw

on the on the on the news media this one

it was the same picture over and over

again of some Taliban hitting a woman

and we don't really know if it was a

thottie bond but that's what the image

showed and I think that you know you can

take a picture like Rodney King being

beaten by the LA police and suddenly all

American policemen are going around

beating people up so I you know I think

one of the things that the media does

the LAPD did admit they had a problem

well they do have a problem and and and

but my point is is that what the media

tends to do is put a magnifying glass on

things and suddenly it would appear that

that's the only thing going on I think

what was ironic was when the National

Geographic found the famous picture of

that Pathan woman who had been on the

cover as a little girl

she actually said that she fared quite

well under them I think what people

don't realize is that the entire country

was in a state of anarchy indeed they

did shut down the schools they told

women to stay at homes but part of the

reason why they took over in the first

place it was because of the rape of the

town woman by the the the northern

Afghanistan unfortunate situation but I

also feel that there's been an

incredible amount of disinformation

personally and I did speak to a lot of

people that were there during that time

I think that the biggest mistake that

that group made was aligning with very

radical elements that were in the

country that were foreign because the

Afghani people and and I'd lived quite

quite who spent quite a bit of time many

of my students have been Afghan Afghanis

people are actually a very there are

wonderful people there and and I think

many of the the Western people that have

gone to Afghanistan and there's a famous

French for photographer Roland who spent

a great deal of time there has recently

put out a book just saying that the

Afghanistan he reads in the newspapers

it's not the Afghanistan he knew in the

1960s which was a land of just

incredible beauty both in its human

population as well as its physical

geography would you say though that you

could make quite a fair comparison to

politics in this country whereby people

say the rise of the right has been

allowed because there is a slightly kind

of more abundant stagnated platform in

British politics is it the same in the

Islamic world that fundamentalism has

been allowed to thrive no I don't think

there's any comparison at all because I

think what happens in the West one of

the things that happens when when you do

have a considerable amount of Liberty

and and and freedom to do what you want

a lot of people here just don't think

about politics a great deal in the West

particularly in America I mean America

although it does have a lot of political

activism the political activism it tends

to be more like football teams like I'm

a Republican you're a Democrat and it's

more Raiders and Buccaneers type

approach to things but in terms of

serious political

standing I think that that the Muslim

world has been living under despotism

for so long that fundamentalism becomes

a pathological reaction to the the deep

repressive elements that have been

controlling the Muslim world and so

religion becomes a liberation theology

it becomes a voice for the voiceless and

and I think really that's at the root of

a lot of the problems for instance if

you look at in the Palestinian situation

in the 1960s and 70s it was Marxism

which was the dominant method of

rebellion or not rather not rebellion

but just as as their political voice and

in the 80s and 90s it begins to move

into an Islamic discourse but they bring

in a lot of Marxist elements into the

discourse and so I think what's happened

in the Muslim world is you've had a

great deal of influence from Marxism and

so the the Islamic political movements

have often been tainted by a type of

Marxist revolutionary rhetoric because

Islam is not in fact a revolutionary

tradition it attempts to purify existing

societies rather than to completely turn

them upside down but purify through

conversion purify through right through

through converting and through also

through principles I mean I think the

Islamic tradition is a tradition that

it's not a theocratic tradition in the

sense that we don't God is not speaking

directly to us

the Muslims also believe in the idea of

natural law and they believe in in

Revelation as principles that have been

given through a messenger and then the

human mind attempts to apply those

principles in the world but human beings

are always going to fall short of that

and I think one of the things that what

what what extremists do is they arrogate

to themselves the voice of God and that

is why they're able to kill people

innocently because they really believe

that they're acting with

absolute authority and and this is I

mean every religious tradition

recognizes the total fallacy in that in

that perspective let's hear from Colin

who's in Kingsland Mohammed who's in

Birmingham and Farida who's in Kingsbury

hello Colin very good morning to your

three to Sheikh Hamza Yusuf a good

morning Sheikh good morning as you see

my question is really directed as a

person of color in the United Kingdom

I'm so afraid of what people in the

Islamic community are doing that there

is no one actually in the UK from the

moderate Islamic communities who are

speaking out against what I believe now

is a cancer in your religion I be

someone has hijacked your religion to

the point where do you believe that

Colin I mean based based on what what's

the manifestation of that cancer well

you only have to look around you around

every corner of the globe at the moment

in the 1980s you had the problem was

communism and so on and so forth right

now the biggest problem that this world

faces where I have a nine year old is my

fear now is Islam and where it is going

and all I want is for people like

yourself who are reasonable to actually

address your community and actually find

out why is it that your religion is

inherently intolerant right well first

of all I would say that I think you you

what what you need to do I mean in

religious studies we have an idea of

what's called descriptive and normative

practice and descriptive is what people

do normative is what the actual religion

teaches and and I think what you have to

look at it you know when historians look

back at this century the 20th century

and now we're moving into the 21st I

think that what's going to be really

obvious is that that the the most

violent people on the planet have

clearly been Western Europeans and

Americans

much more violent I mean the number of

deaths that we have caused with our

weapons of mass destruction reduces the

rest of the world to two really very

small numbers and the Muslim world

probably less than than two percent of

the violence in the last hundred years

has actually had anything to do with the

Muslim world so I think it's it's very

distorted because we don't really look

in in these historical perspectives I

mean I feel that one of the things about

the Muslim world is it has been

suffering a great deal and I think that

what we're seeing it as opposed to a

cancer I would say that it's an its

feverish it's it's it's a it's a immune

system response that that is out of

balance but because there is a great

deal of suffering going on I mean if we

look right now just at the globe people

are very unaware of what's happening in

Chechnya Kashmir in Palestine in Algeria

in in in places where where there's just

an immense amount of suffering and

certainly in Iraq and and and I think a

lot of Muslims feel that and they're

incredibly frustrated because they are a

voiceless community that that they

really believe is not being listened to

and unfortunately I mean I I personally

really feel that want to want one of the

things that these extremist elements are

is that they are a scream or a shout for

an entire civilization and community to

be heard and this is one-fifth of the

world's population and if we don't start

listening I really feel that it is going

to get worse and and that and that will

be just a tragic calling you surely

don't equate all Muslims with the kind

of actions that we saw by people

claiming to be part of that faith on

September the 11th and they weren't

actually they weren't at obeying the

rules of against the cream I don't I

don't equate all Muslims this is the

point I'm saying there is a problem too

often too often they're they use this

excuse or that excuse of to accuse

certain thing look as a Christian that

central tenant of my faith tells me to

forgive my enemy doesn't tell me to go

murder my enemy but there are many

people who have claimed Christianity to

be their religion who have attacked and

who have shown aggression : I mean are

you really fearful of jonasson face at

the moment I the point that the sheiks

made is valid they're over the

generations Christians have been far

more responsible for far more deaths I

can accept that but the point is my

daughter doesn't live in the 18th

century or the 17th the 20th she lives

now and I want her to be able to get on

the flight when she's 18

but you can't hold that against every

Muslim : but why why don't we have more

people actually come out and say thank

you very much of that call it was

something that Margaret Thatcher and

said after September the 11th she

wanting to see more leadership from the

Muslim community or as coach and I'm

damming it and there that we had we do

have serious complications here I mean I

think that that overall for instance

Palestine Palestine is incredibly

complicated and and it and it it does

muddy the waters for clear thinking

about things because I think the vast

majority of Muslims do view that the

Palestinians have inherent rights there

and and and what they do even if it's

these extreme acts I mean I I personally

am completely against the use of

violence against as civilians against

women and children and also what would

be termed as as something that is beyond

government authority if you're acting as

a vigilante not without with that I mean

it's just

anarchy and Islam prohibits any type of

vigilantism

will take more calls a 599 six nine

three after the travel but also we have

a statement which has just been received

here it says that the government has

been forced

to make a common statement on airport

security the common speaker has agreed

to the requests made by the

Conservatives at this stage it hasn't

been confirmed whether the Home

Secretary David Blunkett will make this

statement there also their statement on

Iraq from the Foreign Secretary Jack

Straw and the weekly business statement

from the Commons leader Robin Cook so

probably the first will start at 12:30

and Jack Straw on probably at 1:15

you'll hear all of those things here on

five live hello Anna Perth and Kinross

first of all at the a 9m ninety a 93

Broxton roundabout temporary roadworks

are going on until 3:30 this afternoon

they reduced the roundabout to one lane

only so allow for delays on all

approaches in Stirling the a 875 stays

closed for accident recovery between

Balfron and the a8 double one junction

at chemic Hill no change in Cheshire

either they're still clearing the lorry

load from the a 54 northbound at Bosley

north of Congleton so in the meantime

that side of the road stays close in

Derbyshire though the a a 38 has

reopened northbound after an early a car

fire at the 852 Junction at Mark Eaton

the a5 double one in Staffordshire

that's still closed after this morning's

accident on Ashby Road in

burton-upon-trent and on public

transport there are still delays on

London's tube network following this

morning's major signal failure and

erosion by fly travel not all the

weekend stories are sport related we'll

be bringing you the full story and the

background to today's Shuttle disaster

last few minutes nASA has announced that

it started an inquiry started in the

left wind the rest of the space shuttle

was good Stan no challenge if you have

any questions please text

so we can use with Richard Evans and as

Mamiya

Saturday and Sunday nights remain five

live Sheikh Hamza Yusuf is my guest this

morning so many calls so if you can try

and keep your questions brief we would

appreciate it Muhammad in Birmingham

very good morning to you sir

the money share is not a question please

it's Stephen a factor you've been on

record saying a Muslim should revive the

international tradition especially the

classical heritage of of jurisprudence

and many people have actually started

doing that because of your advice but

what they find is that once they start

studying the books and the scholars that

are recommended to traditionally

targeted traditional standing the

teaching that they are a fine is a

teaching which is currently condemned as

being extremist and fundamentalist I

myself try this series Hannity's yet I'm

especially about jihad and the very

first line I have a read of a classical

text of Islam in Judaism on jihad is

that jihadis is observe each other

Muslims regardless of whether

non-muslims attack us or do not attack

us and this is currently being taught in

Islamic settlement seminaries throughout

the Muslim world by traditional scholars

and I find for instance it's what you

are saying currently especially just for

us I recently seem doesn't seem to gel

with what you were saying previously and

I honestly find that there is some sort

of ingenuity here because if we are to

discover our heritage if it has aspects

which are which are not compatible with

Western civilization let's just have the

answer to that because yes well first of

all I would say that you know jihad is

an obligation binding upon Muslims which

is defense of the homelands it's also

the removal of aggression but the

normative practice of the Muslims has

always been that aggression is

prohibited the the Quran is very clear

on that

let attitude don't be aggressive in your

Wars the Quran says if they incline

towards peace then you too should

incline towards peace the Quran permits

and certainly in traditional

jurisprudence the treaties with with non

Muslim nations and those treaties to be

honored you will find

differing views there is no doubt

because like I said earlier

Islam is not theocratic in we know

exactly what God meant but it's human

attempts at understanding what God means

and that is why first of all most of

those laws that deal with international

relations that deal with these have

nothing to do with your average Muslims

and when and when your average Muslims

begin to to take it upon themselves to

implement laws that were that have to do

with state polity and state power this

is where the confusion comes in it's

it's it's none of the average Muslims

business to be attempting to apply laws

that are directed to the rulers of a

country and and this is what's known in

the assumptions for the iron and folic

aphaia and I ain't everybody has to like

praying five times a day paying zakat

these things Keith aya only those people

that need to do it do it the other

people don't do it and certainly in the

in rules relating to government that has

nothing to do with the common people but

I can see where the confusion would lie

though I mean if you are advocating that

people do read these texts no but if

they raise them without without

qualified teachers absolutely you're

gonna have serious problem you can't

just pick up a book and read look in in

England

no one will allow a barrister who has

not been trained in law school to go out

and practice law and constitutional law

is certainly you have to know

interpretive practices hermeneutics you

have to learn how to derive principles I

mean if we had people reading a book on

surgery and going out and performing

surgery on people out there out in the

society it's madness and so you know

this idea that I can pick up my book and

become a weekend Mufti is absolutely in

Sanji MC is very busy dealing with some

of those cases that a mentor Mohammed

yes of course you can and then I want to

ask you a question myself okay the point

being what I'm trying to say first you

mentioned the Taliban themselves the

thing about the Taliban is that they

were a government they were Taliban

which means students they did

Video 2

thanks roommate five live Sheikh Hamza

Yusuf is my guest this morning so many

calls so if you can try and keep your

questions brief we would appreciate it's

Mohammed in Birmingham very good morning

to you sir question please

it's Stephen a fact that you've been on

record saying a Muslim should revive the

international tradition especially the

classical heritage of of jurisprudence

and many people have actually started

doing that because of your advice

hmm but what they find is that once they

start studying the books and the

scholars that are recommended to

traditionally forgive a tradition

understanding the teaching that they

have they find is a teaching which is

currently condemned as being extremist

and fundamentalist I myself try this

sorry honey jisuk I'm especially about

jihad and the very first line I have a

read of a classical text of Islamic

jurisprudence on jihad is that jihadis

is observe each other Muslims regardless

of whether non-muslims attack us or do

not attack us and this is currently

being taught in Islamic settlement

seminaries throughout the Muslim world

by traditional scholars and I find for

instance it's what you are saying

currently especially just for us I

recently seemed doesn't seem to gel with

what you were saying previously and I

honestly find that there is some sort of

ingenuity here because if we are to

discover our heritage

how if it has aspects which are which

are not compatible with Western

civilization let's just have the answer

to that because yes well first of all I

would say that you know jihad is an

obligation binding upon Muslims which is

defense of the homelands it's also the

removal of aggression but the normative

practice of the Muslims has always been

that aggression is prohibited the the

Quran is very clear on that

latitude don't be aggressive in your

Wars the Quran says if they incline

towards peace then you too should

incline towards peace the Quran permits

and certainly in traditional

jurisprudence the

treaties with with non Muslim nations

and those treaties to be honored you

will find differing views there is no

doubt because like I said earlier Islam

is not theocratic in we know exactly

what God meant but it's human attempts

at understanding what God means and that

is why first of all most of those laws

that deal with international relations

that deal with these have nothing to do

with your average Muslims and when and

when your average Muslims begin to to

take it upon themselves to implement

laws that were that have to do with

state polity and state power this is

where the confusion comes in it's it's

it's none of the average Muslims

business to be attempting to apply laws

that are directed to the rulers of a

country and and this is what's known in

the Assumption is fought at the iron and

fourth Keith ayah and I ain't everybody

has to like praying five times a day

paying zakat these things Keith aya only

those people that need to do it do it

the other people don't do it and

certainly in the in rules relating to

government that has nothing to do with

the common people but I can see where

the confusion would lie though I mean if

you are advocating that people do read

these tests no but if they raise them

without without qualified teachers

absolutely you're gonna have serious

problem you can't just pick up a book

and read look in in England no one will

allow a barrister who has not been

trained in law school to go out and

practice law and constitutional law is

certainly you have to know interpretive

practices hermeneutics you have to learn

how to derive principles I mean if we

had people reading a book on surgery and

going out and performing surgery on

people out there out in the society it's

madness and so you know this idea that I

can pick up my book and become a weekend

Mufti is absolutely insane GMC is very

busy dealing with some of those cases

Mohammed yes of course you can and then

I want to ask you a question myself okay

the point being what I'm trying to say

first you mention the Taliban themselves

the thing about the Taliban is that they

were a government they were

barring students they didn't pick up

books and just apply Islamic law they

were they were advised by the ami

scholars of a certain tradition in

Pakistan the Deobandi school they

themselves have scholars and they in

fact interpreted the understanding of

Islam and the party on that on their

nation and that was condemned by the

rest of the world

yet yet from from their perspective they

were implementing Islamic law to

qualified opinion and their

interpretation has been accepted but a

lot of Muslims in the world and it's an

interpretation and if they are condemned

you're forcing people who accept that

interpretation into the into an

extremist camp and who decide ultimately

do you think Mohammed do you feel that

you are either tempted or you feel

obliged to follow ye have because of

what you've read and because of what you

believe you've been told no what I want

to do is I want to understand my Islamic

heritage and learn from traditional

scholars about Islam exactly what share

Hamza wishes Muslims to do unfortunately

my scholars are the same scholars who

learned with the Taliban and it cannot

be said that the scholars saying in

Mauritania or in Egypt who have a more

liberal understanding a better Islamic

scholars and scholars that the Taliban

is the agenda but they are both follow a

tradition now I want to study Islam and

then I want Muslims to implement in

their lives they shouldn't force the

amongst other people but then they

shouldn't be condemned by people for

implementing which is traditional Islam

and then said oh these are people these

are fundamentalist I mean we have

certain penal laws in the sand or other

laws but we'll we will always be

condemned for applying our laws first of

all I mean just in penal punishments

there's six pino punishments in the

entire the sama corpus all the other

ones are going to the category of a

judge's discretion in those six all of

them should be avoided to the best of

one's ability but the point that it

comes to the I mean they said in 800

years the Ottomans didn't cut off any

hands or stone any adulterers be because

people people veiled people's faults if

somebody stole from you if you forgive

them they then they're not punished for

it but if you if you take it to the

authorities then the authorities are

obliged

implement the law a lot of Muslims don't

understand these solutions about Islamic

law the Taliban will just simply condemn

for even attempting to apply well I

don't know you know that my personal

feeling about thought I was not there I

didn't see it and I and I really felt it

was an immense amount of disinformation

it's well known in the West that the the

first victim or the first the first

casualty of war is the truth and I I

wasn't there I didn't see it so I really

don't like to comment on something that

I just I mean and that is a Islamic

principle that you should withhold

judgment do you really understand

something what is problematic for so

many people though is the interpretation

of something like Sharia law we were

talking about on the honor killings have

nothing to do with Islam

honor killings occur more in in in US

one small segment of the of the Muslim

world and it they occur amongst

Christians and amongst Muslims and they

used to occur Casey well they believe no

it's not theirs there's no absolutely no

basis for its absolute complete

ignorance I'll give you an example there

was a time in America there was a time

in Mexico where people killed their

daughters for dishonouring the family I

mean you know the this is just a type of

a primitive understanding about about

the world that exists in in many many

places and it has nothing to do with

religion and I think when we conflate

religion and culture when we conflate

religion and and human behavior then

we're in deep trouble I mean I think at

the essence of the Islamic tradition

certainly the the great world religions

at the essence of these traditions is

the concept of mercy I mean the plan

begins in the name of God the merciful

the compassionate because she's

dishonored me as certainly I think has

nothing to do with the concept of mercy

sure but then why isn't more of a

challenge May's in those states I mean

let's say in Jordan by honor killing is

condemned honor killing is condemned by

all I've never met anybody in the Muslim

world and I lived in the Arab world for

it for over ten years I've never met

anybody

has justified that they've all seen it

as as something that's wretched and I

think even probably the people that have

perpetrated the crime prior to it

actually happening to them probably

would have seen it as odious but it

becomes I mean this is the nature of

cultures are very deep and they have

dark elements I mean we have dark

elements here in the United States we've

we've we've we've aborted over 20

million fetuses since Roe vs. Wade

there's a lot of people that consider

that to be an incredibly barbaric act of

genocide of mass murder and I know that

it's certainly a debatable point in in

the secular societies but there are many

the Catholics view that as as one of the

great crimes against humanity and yet it

seems to be an acceptable normative

practice we will pick this up after the

news sport in the weather at so 599 693

here is John Kelly and I keep looking

Envy at the weather in Port Elizabeth

where it's glorious sunny vector octave

issues within 28 degrees now remember

the BBC Sports Department this not yes

I'd like to join my colleagues but there

you go

and then fly the flag back home Emily

but anyway I think it's gonna be very

close finished David my game there's

plenty of life in that one yet so now

we've got a line of discontinuity down

the middle of the country for example

it's six degrees in core war with some

sunshine it's six degrees also in the

Isle of Man without sunshine there's

just two in Bristol and two in

Manchester getting colder from the east

now with its colder weather we are

seeing up the line of discontinuity some

drizzly rain and some sweet - for the

Cotswolds still moving Southwest was

across South Wales and southwest England

during the rest of today and for a time

tonight as well now as it keeps turning

colder it is turning brighter he's

telling much sunnier now in parts of

Lincolnshire and East Anglia and Kent

and this sunnier weather will keep on

moving into central parts this afternoon

and other parts of the southeast as well

so it just set it up for a frosty night

tonight temperatures down to minus 4 so

a hard frost to come in quite a number

of parts of the country whereas further

western north more drizzle to come in

southern and eastern Scotland Northern

Ireland hanging out to some mist and fog

as well especially for the first part of

the afternoon as a weak sunshine amongst

tonight that could be a little bit of

reneges are coming into western parts of

the province and the Outer Hebrides here

frost free but otherwise

from Frost for other parts of Scotland

tonight live News live sports this is

5:00 live it's 7:33 5:00 live News with

Alex Derbyshire Iraq's Deputy Prime

Minister Tareq Aziz has denied

suggestions that Baghdad has missiles

which breach UN resolutions the chief

weapons inspector Hans Blix is expected

to tell the Security Council tomorrow

that Iraq's developed a weapon with the

potential to exceed the UN limit of 115

kilometers the anti-terrorist operation

around the UK's airports is continuing

in response to threats of a terrorist

attack

the Home Secretary David Blunkett will

make a common statement on airport

security this afternoon the Foreign

Secretary Jack Straw will also make a

statement on Iraq detectives

investigating the murder of 19-year old

Marsha MacDonald who died from three

massive blows to the head have confirmed

that they're investigating a similar

incident that took place in January a 17

year old girl suffered head injuries

after a suspected attack in the

Strawberry Hill area of southwest London

French media reports say a Spanish man

charged with killing the British

schoolgirl Caroline Dickinson seven

years ago has admitted the murder 13

year old Caroline was staying at a youth

hostel on a school trip in Brittany when

she was raped and killed by an intruder

she lay in bed and three students from

an agricultural College in Shropshire

have been killed in a road crash three

other men were badly injured in the

accident which happened near the

entrance to Harper Adams University

College near Newport last night thank

you his David Croft with all the sport a

flurry of runs as John Kerry mentioned

at the end of their innings from New

Zealand and their World Cup match

against the West Indies in Port

Elizabeth Simon Mann has all the details

they finished on 241 for 7 from their 50

overs that was a good effort from New

Zealand after being 147 per six in the

33rd they got there thanks to a sensible

innings from wicket keeper Brendon

McCullum who was 36 not out and scible

ignorance from andre adams who finished

35 not atany got those runs from 24

balls with two sixes and a four New

Zealand's struggled early on Stephen

Fleming 25 Vettori 13s tyrus 5 they were

66 for 3 then a good stand

ah Stalin can for them both went in

quick succession aster was caught behind

although don't hit it off Heinz and cans

went too long off also off hind to

finish with three four thirty five so

Weston is need two hundred and forty two

to win the very interesting see how it

works out of England's cricketers should

have been in Harare today playing their

opening World Cup match against involve

way and

Video 3

involved three days cool from Kingsbury

three to Vega morning good money to see

a thousand I heard about your work about

12 years ago from somebody who come from

the state and I've been praying

fervently since then that we have more

people like you now a hundred my

question to you is ever since the speech

on the axis of evil it's feeling more

and more like a crusade visibly

Christianity versus Islam do you

perceive this modern conflict in the

Middle East as a clash of civilizations

or is it a clash of religious belief I

would call it a crash of civilizations I

think it's absolutely the absence of

civilization that leads to to these type

of conflicts in terms of a crusade I

think that there's no doubt that there

there are certain elements in the u.s.

that have a crusader mentality and we

see this in in the fundamentalist

Christian branch and and and there are

people within the the administration

that definitely cater to do that to that

element I think that America by and

large is as a country and certainly the

government is not opposed to a

secularized Islam that is an Islam that

does really not impinge on the society

at large but I think when we talk about

in Islam for instance that prohibits

usery interest a lot of modern banking

schemes an Islam that also permits

people to defend their homelands and

things like this against aggression yeah

I think that there is definitely a

feeling in the government that they do

not want to see this type of a song

because it's antithetical to their

interests in the region

and I think at root for most of these

people I don't think they're they're

ideologically committed to the Christian

religion to to put it in those terms I

think it's much more simply about power

politics and a kind of Machiavellian

attempt at

having their hegemonic concerns in the

region fulfilled Blair and bush' both

said they to share a very similar

platform of Christianity you've spent a

bit of time at least with President Bush

do you believe that Christianity lies

somewhere within his kind of remit and

purpose

I think definitely he's got a Christian

some type of adherence to the Christian

religion no doubt it helped him through

his alcoholism but again I think that

the people around Bush by and large I

think our power politicians and and I

think that religion probably plays less

of a role in their minds than political

concern do you believe my good buddies

very wrong about that but that's that's

my gut feel okay

deeply that President Bush's at all

credible to a Muslim audience no I I

think that by and large that America has

lost all credibility in the Muslim world

I think that many many Muslims actually

look towards America certainly during

the 50s and 60s as being a force that

might help them get out of the yoke of

despotic regimes but America ended up

not only supporting but actively

supporting many of these regimes

certainly Saddam Hussein is a creation

by and large of of the United States and

I think that's where unfortunately the

hypocrisy is much more evident to to

most of the Muslims and I think it's

tragic in a sense because I think the

ideals that America was founded upon our

powerful ideals and and and they're

rooted also in in the Islamic tradition

as well the ideals of self-determination

and and the right for people to pursue

happiness and which of the bits say that

really don't fit where between American

culture and society now well I've never

coached yeah I think that probably some

of the most distasteful aspects

of of Western culture generally are not

just distasteful to Muslims I think many

just good people in in the West find the

the pornographic element the the the

immorality that has kind of permeated

our culture I mean I've got children I

don't like my children to look at

billboards and and see and it's not that

I think that bodies are disgusting and I

don't but but I think that there's

there's a time and a place for

everything and I certainly don't feel

that that type of sexuality should be

publicly displayed those aspects and I

think that the by and large Muslims

share those with a lot of people in the

West does tiny bear have a credibility

to a Muslim audience I think that that

Blair I mean Michael Moore said that you

know when you see Tony Blair and George

Bush standing side by side he said you

see one intelligent man and you wonder

what he's doing with the other one I

mean that might be a little unfair but I

do think that it's very sad that labor

has completely capitulated and I did

remark that it troubles me that the

great the the great line of Great

Britain has become a feather in the tail

of the American Eagle I mean I think

that that Great Britain should play an

extraordinary role of being a moral

voice in the West and I think that that

Great Britain can be that voice that

reminds America that not only is the

path that it's pursuing a dangerous one

but it's the one that Great Britain

herself has been down and that's the

path of empire and ultimately it leads

to failure and and I think that the the

British people are acutely aware of that

because they saw it in their own history

and joins us from Glasgow morning in

hello yes good wine I'd like to know how

I define empire because at the height of

the Ottoman Empire in the 20th century I

don't know if your listeners are aware

of this or not the worst atrocities

committed in the history of mankind

prior to the first and second world wars

was committed by the turkey Muslims

against the Armenians you know 1 million

to one and a half million Christians

killed because they were not of the

faith of the Muslim that's

I just also please may I speak because

we do have freedom of speech in this

country in certain Islamic countries I

would not be able to express myself as I

am just now and there with you if I was

in certain Islamic countries hmm

could I just also say to you that um it

seems extraordinary that we have a

situation just now where everything

seems to be down to the the the satanic

west where in fact if you consider the

history of the Islamic faith you do seem

to be based you-you-you tenets on heat

another moderation that you have a

problem I think with the moderate

Muslims should be challenging the

authority of the extremists the mullahs

in the Imams if you don't have that

situation then I'm afraid that the rest

of the world the rest of the major

religions of the world I'm going to

perceive the Islamic faith as based on

fear and injustice which particular

states and regimes are you talking about

well in Egypt for example you do have

what you would call a moderate Muslim

country where I believe 20% of the the

population in Egypt is not of the Muslim

faith but you have you have Islamic

extremists in that country where if they

were to take over the mainstream people

in Egypt is now they would reduce the

the Muslim the non-muslims to zero in

Saudi Arabia for example you only have

one religion permitted there which is

based on a hideous regime where all

sorts of atrocious the sentences are

passed on individuals because they dare

challenge the authority of that well

let's just let's just try to tackle that

shake hands would you admit and that

that does need to be more

forward-thinking a wider appreciation of

freedoms that the West have embraced in

some parts of the Muslim world

absolutely I mean I don't first address

the the idea that the the Ottomans that

this the worst atrocity ever in the

history of I mean that's blatantly false

it's well known the the Armenian tragedy

that did happen happened but by most

historians there there was a recognized

exaggeration of numbers because of anti

Russian propaganda at the time but a

rather anti Turkish propaganda at the

time based on Britain's interests there

but but the point about the the Ottomans

at that point was already a secularized

government in fact the Armenians were

well known to be one at one of the few

communities in in that region that had

reached very very high levels within the

Ottoman government itself ministerial

levels and things like that and I think

the Ottomans actually by and large with

their atrocities because like any

empires they did have their atrocities

but by and large they were known to be

one of the most tolerant civilizations

in the pre-modern world certainly right

in the modern world in the modern world

we've got a real serious problem in the

Muslim world there's no doubt and I

think that the suffering that goes on

again is is I mean I lived in the Muslim

world and I certainly many of the things

that I saw I think the the the the abuse

of women in in in many of the the

countries that has to do with just

ignorant I really feel that and and it

wasn't that long I mean we forget that

women didn't inherit in this country in

the 19th century I mean we kind of pride

ourselves on these leaps and bounds that

we've made in the last few decades but

the reality of it is I mean if we look

at our own history I mean the it took

quite a considerable amount of time to

achieve certain things that we've

achieved in the West and I think that in

the different surely is that they're

mean the suffragette movement in this

country was one where women were

prepared to lose their own lives in the

name of freedom whereas if you're a

woman living in Jordan or Saudi Arabia

the moment you are more likely to lose

your life at the hands of the state if

you try and pursue ultimate freedom than

at your own hands and that surely is

wrong and you can you know you can say I

can adjourn you have to look forward

exactly and I'm not going to what I'm

saying is that change

does take time I mean we forget the

revolutions that we've had we forget all

the blood that's been spilt in in in

Western civilization that we can speak

freely you know many of us would have

been plebeians in another age we

wouldn't even have the right to be

discussing government policy that was

the the right of the Lord's and and and

the aristocracy

well people fought and died in order for

us to have these and and people just

kind of forget that they think that we

we just it's always been like this is it

hasn't always been like this and I think

it's going to take a lot of time say for

other parts of the world to achieve

certain levels of liberty and freedom

and I would like to see it done without

the type of bloodshed that has occurred

and I think that it's it's very easy for

us to point our fingers at other

societies and civilizations I'm not

defending the Muslim world per se I I'm

I grew up in California I was raised by

a woman who was very active my mother

was very active in the civil rights III

grew up in a liberal progressive

tradition I'm not going to to defend

despotism I'm not going to defend the

the atrocious human rights records in in

many parts not just of the Muslim world

but around the world but I'm certainly

also very aware of how easy it is to

attack that world without really

understanding it at a much deeper level

I mean if you take a book by the

brilliant British historian David Franck

and a piece to end all peace I mean he

shows you that it was in fact Britain

and France that set up a type of

scenario in the Middle East would that

would ensure that the that the countries

in that area would remain in this type

of morass isn't the real danger in

taking all those lessons from history

that the place that we find ourselves in

at the moment which is slightly kind of

fists up between two massive cultures

will actually lead to both suffering

there will not be the time this is

progression thank you I mean I that is

exactly how I feel and I think that if

we don't listen to each other and it's

going to be very difficult but it's

going to take

real intelligence and and and reason and

and I think that's what human beings

unfortunately are not very adept at when

they're when they're just constantly in

the turmoil and agitation of crises

management it's been wonderful having

you here thank you very much indeed for

coming in so huge they can see you so

thank you for all the calls and I know

that we didn't manage to put very many

honor but we do appreciate the fact that

you're listening and wanting to get

involved here's Anna with the travel in

sterling the a 875 remains closed while

Stan accidents recovered between Balfron

and the a8 double one junction at kamek

hill

you