On five line, Sheikh Hamza Yusuf has been described in the press as the most influential Islamic scholar a convert to Islam. He's the founder of the Zaytuna Institute in California which seeks to
educate people about the Muslim faith. He has also been described by one newspaper as President Bush's pet Muslim. You're very welcome on our program this morning
Thank you very much indeed for coming in are you President Bush's link to the Muslim world. Have you been that
no no I think after September 11th I was the Muslim that was invited in to discuss the situation with him so I think there was a lot of misunderstanding about that that came out of that but in fact you know I think it's quite the opposite
you were responsible they were changing the name of operation infinite justice
Right I did bring that up in that meeting. that infinite justice was and I think Christians and Jews and any other monotheistic traditions would certainly consider infinite justice a blasphemous
concept the idea that somehow that
America has infinite capacity for being
yes yes that kind of control-freak Reid
doesn't tend to well yeah I think the
response that was the president said
that we don't have theologians in the
Pentagon and I think that that would
probably be kind of an interesting idea
to maybe bring some theologians in to
discuss things because it seems like the
moral the moral case is very weak you've
said some very interesting things about
where Islam is at the moment and the
fact that you believe it's experiencing
quite a dark age why well I would say I
would say that the Muslims in a sense
are going through a particularly
difficult time I think that the the
Muslims were very successful
civilization and people for centuries
and and in a way it's difficult for us
in the West to to kind of imagine how
the scenario was because for many many
centuries it was in fact the
Muslims that were the enlightened people
and the people of education erudition
and and right now in in this
post-colonial period that's been going
on for some time and the decline of
Islam was going on for a very long time
but the the the post-colonial period is
particularly painful because not only
were the institutions dismantled during
the colonial period educational
institutions so scholars for instance in
the Muslim world we we really are
suffering from the dearth of scholars in
the Muslim world and because of that a
lot of people that are not trained or
educated theologically or in Islamic
jurisprudence have suddenly become these
spokesmen for the Islamic tradition and
very often their their extreme in their
views and these views are put forward
somehow as being mainstream Islam which
it's it's like taking something like
David Koresh from from Waco Texas and
saying that he represents mainstream
Christianity was that what had happened
with the Taliban because I know that the
worst so what I got is who believed that
they were actually not forward-looking
and they had used an interpretation that
was really quite backwards well I think
that the Taliban I personally I really
feel that the Taliban it was an attempt
at just stabilizing an incredibly
destabilized condition and I think that
for instance you know this we often saw
on the on the on the news media this one
it was the same picture over and over
again of some Taliban hitting a woman
and we don't really know if it was a
thottie bond but that's what the image
showed and I think that you know you can
take a picture like Rodney King being
beaten by the LA police and suddenly all
American policemen are going around
beating people up so I you know I think
one of the things that the media does
the LAPD did admit they had a problem
well they do have a problem and and and
but my point is is that what the media
tends to do is put a magnifying glass on
things and suddenly it would appear that
that's the only thing going on I think
what was ironic was when the National
Geographic found the famous picture of
that Pathan woman who had been on the
cover as a little girl
she actually said that she fared quite
well under them I think what people
don't realize is that the entire country
was in a state of anarchy indeed they
did shut down the schools they told
women to stay at homes but part of the
reason why they took over in the first
place it was because of the rape of the
town woman by the the the northern
Afghanistan unfortunate situation but I
also feel that there's been an
incredible amount of disinformation
personally and I did speak to a lot of
people that were there during that time
I think that the biggest mistake that
that group made was aligning with very
radical elements that were in the
country that were foreign because the
Afghani people and and I'd lived quite
quite who spent quite a bit of time many
of my students have been Afghan Afghanis
people are actually a very there are
wonderful people there and and I think
many of the the Western people that have
gone to Afghanistan and there's a famous
French for photographer Roland who spent
a great deal of time there has recently
put out a book just saying that the
Afghanistan he reads in the newspapers
it's not the Afghanistan he knew in the
1960s which was a land of just
incredible beauty both in its human
population as well as its physical
geography would you say though that you
could make quite a fair comparison to
politics in this country whereby people
say the rise of the right has been
allowed because there is a slightly kind
of more abundant stagnated platform in
British politics is it the same in the
Islamic world that fundamentalism has
been allowed to thrive no I don't think
there's any comparison at all because I
think what happens in the West one of
the things that happens when when you do
have a considerable amount of Liberty
and and and freedom to do what you want
a lot of people here just don't think
about politics a great deal in the West
particularly in America I mean America
although it does have a lot of political
activism the political activism it tends
to be more like football teams like I'm
a Republican you're a Democrat and it's
more Raiders and Buccaneers type
approach to things but in terms of
serious political
standing I think that that the Muslim
world has been living under despotism
for so long that fundamentalism becomes
a pathological reaction to the the deep
repressive elements that have been
controlling the Muslim world and so
religion becomes a liberation theology
it becomes a voice for the voiceless and
and I think really that's at the root of
a lot of the problems for instance if
you look at in the Palestinian situation
in the 1960s and 70s it was Marxism
which was the dominant method of
rebellion or not rather not rebellion
but just as as their political voice and
in the 80s and 90s it begins to move
into an Islamic discourse but they bring
in a lot of Marxist elements into the
discourse and so I think what's happened
in the Muslim world is you've had a
great deal of influence from Marxism and
so the the Islamic political movements
have often been tainted by a type of
Marxist revolutionary rhetoric because
Islam is not in fact a revolutionary
tradition it attempts to purify existing
societies rather than to completely turn
them upside down but purify through
conversion purify through right through
through converting and through also
through principles I mean I think the
Islamic tradition is a tradition that
it's not a theocratic tradition in the
sense that we don't God is not speaking
directly to us
the Muslims also believe in the idea of
natural law and they believe in in
Revelation as principles that have been
given through a messenger and then the
human mind attempts to apply those
principles in the world but human beings
are always going to fall short of that
and I think one of the things that what
what what extremists do is they arrogate
to themselves the voice of God and that
is why they're able to kill people
innocently because they really believe
that they're acting with
absolute authority and and this is I
mean every religious tradition
recognizes the total fallacy in that in
that perspective let's hear from Colin
who's in Kingsland Mohammed who's in
Birmingham and Farida who's in Kingsbury
hello Colin very good morning to your
three to Sheikh Hamza Yusuf a good
morning Sheikh good morning as you see
my question is really directed as a
person of color in the United Kingdom
I'm so afraid of what people in the
Islamic community are doing that there
is no one actually in the UK from the
moderate Islamic communities who are
speaking out against what I believe now
is a cancer in your religion I be
someone has hijacked your religion to
the point where do you believe that
Colin I mean based based on what what's
the manifestation of that cancer well
you only have to look around you around
every corner of the globe at the moment
in the 1980s you had the problem was
communism and so on and so forth right
now the biggest problem that this world
faces where I have a nine year old is my
fear now is Islam and where it is going
and all I want is for people like
yourself who are reasonable to actually
address your community and actually find
out why is it that your religion is
inherently intolerant right well first
of all I would say that I think you you
what what you need to do I mean in
religious studies we have an idea of
what's called descriptive and normative
practice and descriptive is what people
do normative is what the actual religion
teaches and and I think what you have to
look at it you know when historians look
back at this century the 20th century
and now we're moving into the 21st I
think that what's going to be really
obvious is that that the the most
violent people on the planet have
clearly been Western Europeans and
Americans
much more violent I mean the number of
deaths that we have caused with our
weapons of mass destruction reduces the
rest of the world to two really very
small numbers and the Muslim world
probably less than than two percent of
the violence in the last hundred years
has actually had anything to do with the
Muslim world so I think it's it's very
distorted because we don't really look
in in these historical perspectives I
mean I feel that one of the things about
the Muslim world is it has been
suffering a great deal and I think that
what we're seeing it as opposed to a
cancer I would say that it's an its
feverish it's it's it's a it's a immune
system response that that is out of
balance but because there is a great
deal of suffering going on I mean if we
look right now just at the globe people
are very unaware of what's happening in
Chechnya Kashmir in Palestine in Algeria
in in in places where where there's just
an immense amount of suffering and
certainly in Iraq and and and I think a
lot of Muslims feel that and they're
incredibly frustrated because they are a
voiceless community that that they
really believe is not being listened to
and unfortunately I mean I I personally
really feel that want to want one of the
things that these extremist elements are
is that they are a scream or a shout for
an entire civilization and community to
be heard and this is one-fifth of the
world's population and if we don't start
listening I really feel that it is going
to get worse and and that and that will
be just a tragic calling you surely
don't equate all Muslims with the kind
of actions that we saw by people
claiming to be part of that faith on
September the 11th and they weren't
actually they weren't at obeying the
rules of against the cream I don't I
don't equate all Muslims this is the
point I'm saying there is a problem too
often too often they're they use this
excuse or that excuse of to accuse
certain thing look as a Christian that
central tenant of my faith tells me to
forgive my enemy doesn't tell me to go
murder my enemy but there are many
people who have claimed Christianity to
be their religion who have attacked and
who have shown aggression : I mean are
you really fearful of jonasson face at
the moment I the point that the sheiks
made is valid they're over the
generations Christians have been far
more responsible for far more deaths I
can accept that but the point is my
daughter doesn't live in the 18th
century or the 17th the 20th she lives
now and I want her to be able to get on
the flight when she's 18
but you can't hold that against every
Muslim : but why why don't we have more
people actually come out and say thank
you very much of that call it was
something that Margaret Thatcher and
said after September the 11th she
wanting to see more leadership from the
Muslim community or as coach and I'm
damming it and there that we had we do
have serious complications here I mean I
think that that overall for instance
Palestine Palestine is incredibly
complicated and and it and it it does
muddy the waters for clear thinking
about things because I think the vast
majority of Muslims do view that the
Palestinians have inherent rights there
and and and what they do even if it's
these extreme acts I mean I I personally
am completely against the use of
violence against as civilians against
women and children and also what would
be termed as as something that is beyond
government authority if you're acting as
a vigilante not without with that I mean
it's just
anarchy and Islam prohibits any type of
vigilantism
will take more calls a 599 six nine
three after the travel but also we have
a statement which has just been received
here it says that the government has
been forced
to make a common statement on airport
security the common speaker has agreed
to the requests made by the
Conservatives at this stage it hasn't
been confirmed whether the Home
Secretary David Blunkett will make this
statement there also their statement on
Iraq from the Foreign Secretary Jack
Straw and the weekly business statement
from the Commons leader Robin Cook so
probably the first will start at 12:30
and Jack Straw on probably at 1:15
you'll hear all of those things here on
five live hello Anna Perth and Kinross
first of all at the a 9m ninety a 93
Broxton roundabout temporary roadworks
are going on until 3:30 this afternoon
they reduced the roundabout to one lane
only so allow for delays on all
approaches in Stirling the a 875 stays
closed for accident recovery between
Balfron and the a8 double one junction
at chemic Hill no change in Cheshire
either they're still clearing the lorry
load from the a 54 northbound at Bosley
north of Congleton so in the meantime
that side of the road stays close in
Derbyshire though the a a 38 has
reopened northbound after an early a car
fire at the 852 Junction at Mark Eaton
the a5 double one in Staffordshire
that's still closed after this morning's
accident on Ashby Road in
burton-upon-trent and on public
transport there are still delays on
London's tube network following this
morning's major signal failure and
erosion by fly travel not all the
weekend stories are sport related we'll
be bringing you the full story and the
background to today's Shuttle disaster
last few minutes nASA has announced that
it started an inquiry started in the
left wind the rest of the space shuttle
was good Stan no challenge if you have
any questions please text
so we can use with Richard Evans and as
Mamiya
Saturday and Sunday nights remain five
live Sheikh Hamza Yusuf is my guest this
morning so many calls so if you can try
and keep your questions brief we would
appreciate it Muhammad in Birmingham
very good morning to you sir
the money share is not a question please
it's Stephen a factor you've been on
record saying a Muslim should revive the
international tradition