On five line, Sheikh Hamza Yusuf has been described in the press as the most influential Islamic scholar a convert to Islam. He's the founder of the Zaytuna Institute in California which seeks to
educate people about the Muslim faith. He has also been described by one newspaper as President Bush's pet Muslim. You're very welcome on our program this morning
Thank you very much indeed for coming in are you President Bush's link to the Muslim world. Have you been that
no no I think after September 11th I was the Muslim that was invited in to discuss the situation with him so I think there was a lot of misunderstanding about that that came out of that but in fact you know I think it's quite the opposite
you were responsible they were changing the name of operation infinite justice
Right I did bring that up in that meeting. that infinite justice was and I think Christians and Jews and any other monotheistic traditions would certainly consider infinite justice a blasphemous
concept the idea that somehow that
America has infinite capacity for being
yes yes that kind of control-freak Reid
doesn't tend to well yeah I think the
response that was the president said
that we don't have theologians in the
Pentagon and I think that that would
probably be kind of an interesting idea
to maybe bring some theologians in to
discuss things because it seems like the
moral the moral case is very weak you've
said some very interesting things about
where Islam is at the moment and the
fact that you believe it's experiencing
quite a dark age why well I would say I
would say that the Muslims in a sense
are going through a particularly
difficult time I think that the the
Muslims were very successful
civilization and people for centuries
and and in a way it's difficult for us
in the West to to kind of imagine how
the scenario was because for many many
centuries it was in fact the
Muslims that were the enlightened people
and the people of education erudition
and and right now in in this
post-colonial period that's been going
on for some time and the decline of
Islam was going on for a very long time
but the the the post-colonial period is
particularly painful because not only
were the institutions dismantled during
the colonial period educational
institutions so scholars for instance in
the Muslim world we we really are
suffering from the dearth of scholars in
the Muslim world and because of that a
lot of people that are not trained or
educated theologically or in Islamic
jurisprudence have suddenly become these
spokesmen for the Islamic tradition and
very often their their extreme in their
views and these views are put forward
somehow as being mainstream Islam which
it's it's like taking something like
David Koresh from from Waco Texas and
saying that he represents mainstream
Christianity was that what had happened
with the Taliban because I know that the
worst so what I got is who believed that
they were actually not forward-looking
and they had used an interpretation that
was really quite backwards well I think
that the Taliban I personally I really
feel that the Taliban it was an attempt
at just stabilizing an incredibly
destabilized condition and I think that
for instance you know this we often saw
on the on the on the news media this one
it was the same picture over and over
again of some Taliban hitting a woman
and we don't really know if it was a
thottie bond but that's what the image
showed and I think that you know you can
take a picture like Rodney King being
beaten by the LA police and suddenly all
American policemen are going around
beating people up so I you know I think
one of the things that the media does
the LAPD did admit they had a problem
well they do have a problem and and and
but my point is is that what the media
tends to do is put a magnifying glass on
things and suddenly it would appear that
that's the only thing going on I think
what was ironic was when the National
Geographic found the famous picture of
that Pathan woman who had been on the
cover as a little girl
she actually said that she fared quite
well under them I think what people
don't realize is that the entire country
was in a state of anarchy indeed they
did shut down the schools they told
women to stay at homes but part of the
reason why they took over in the first
place it was because of the rape of the
town woman by the the the northern
Afghanistan unfortunate situation but I
also feel that there's been an
incredible amount of disinformation
personally and I did speak to a lot of
people that were there during that time
I think that the biggest mistake that
that group made was aligning with very
radical elements that were in the
country that were foreign because the
Afghani people and and I'd lived quite
quite who spent quite a bit of time many
of my students have been Afghan Afghanis
people are actually a very there are
wonderful people there and and I think
many of the the Western people that have
gone to Afghanistan and there's a famous
French for photographer Roland who spent
a great deal of time there has recently
put out a book just saying that the
Afghanistan he reads in the newspapers
it's not the Afghanistan he knew in the
1960s which was a land of just
incredible beauty both in its human
population as well as its physical
geography would you say though that you
could make quite a fair comparison to
politics in this country whereby people
say the rise of the right has been
allowed because there is a slightly kind
of more abundant stagnated platform in
British politics is it the same in the
Islamic world that fundamentalism has
been allowed to thrive no I don't think
there's any comparison at all because I
think what happens in the West one of
the things that happens when when you do
have a considerable amount of Liberty
and and and freedom to do what you want
a lot of people here just don't think
about politics a great deal in the West
particularly in America I mean America
although it does have a lot of political
activism the political activism it tends
to be more like football teams like I'm
a Republican you're a Democrat and it's
more Raiders and Buccaneers type
approach to things but in terms of
serious political
standing I think that that the Muslim
world has been living under despotism
for so long that fundamentalism becomes
a pathological reaction to the the deep
repressive elements that have been
controlling the Muslim world and so
religion becomes a liberation theology
it becomes a voice for the voiceless and
and I think really that's at the root of
a lot of the problems for instance if
you look at in the Palestinian situation
in the 1960s and 70s it was Marxism
which was the dominant method of
rebellion or not rather not rebellion
but just as as their political voice and
in the 80s and 90s it begins to move
into an Islamic discourse but they bring
in a lot of Marxist elements into the
discourse and so I think what's happened
in the Muslim world is you've had a
great deal of influence from Marxism and
so the the Islamic political movements
have often been tainted by a type of
Marxist revolutionary rhetoric because
Islam is not in fact a revolutionary
tradition it attempts to purify existing
societies rather than to completely turn
them upside down but purify through
conversion purify through right through
through converting and through also
through principles I mean I think the
Islamic tradition is a tradition that
it's not a theocratic tradition in the
sense that we don't God is not speaking
directly to us
the Muslims also believe in the idea of
natural law and they believe in in
Revelation as principles that have been
given through a messenger and then the
human mind attempts to apply those
principles in the world but human beings
are always going to fall short of that
and I think one of the things that what
what what extremists do is they arrogate
to themselves the voice of God and that
is why they're able to kill people
innocently because they really believe
that they're acting with
absolute authority and and this is I
mean every religious tradition
recognizes the total fallacy in that in
that perspective let's hear from Colin
who's in Kingsland Mohammed who's in
Birmingham and Farida who's in Kingsbury
hello Colin very good morning to your
three to Sheikh Hamza Yusuf a good
morning Sheikh good morning as you see
my question is really directed as a
person of color in the United Kingdom
I'm so afraid of what people in the
Islamic community are doing that there
is no one actually in the UK from the
moderate Islamic communities who are
speaking out against what I believe now
is a cancer in your religion I be
someone has hijacked your religion to
the point where do you believe that
Colin I mean based based on what what's
the manifestation of that cancer well
you only have to look around you around
every corner of the globe at the moment
in the 1980s you had the problem was
communism and so on and so forth right
now the biggest problem that this world
faces where I have a nine year old is my
fear now is Islam and where it is going
and all I want is for people like
yourself who are reasonable to actually
address your community and actually find
out why is it that your religion is
inherently intolerant right well first
of all I would say that I think you you
what what you need to do I mean in
religious studies we have an idea of
what's called descriptive and normative
practice and descriptive is what people
do normative is what the actual religion
teaches and and I think what you have to
look at it you know when historians look
back at this century the 20th century
and now we're moving into the 21st I
think that what's going to be really
obvious is that that the the most
violent people on the planet have
clearly been Western Europeans and
Americans
much more violent I mean the number of
deaths that we have caused with our
weapons of mass destruction reduces the
rest of the world to two really very
small numbers and the Muslim world
probably less than than two percent of
the violence in the last hundred years
has actually had anything to do with the
Muslim world so I think it's it's very
distorted because we don't really look
in in these historical perspectives I
mean I feel that one of the things about
the Muslim world is it has been
suffering a great deal and I think that
what we're seeing it as opposed to a
cancer I would say that it's an its
feverish it's it's it's a it's a immune
system response that that is out of
balance but because there is a great
deal of suffering going on I mean if we
look right now just at the globe people
are very unaware of what's happening in
Chechnya Kashmir in Palestine in Algeria
in in in places where where there's just
an immense amount of suffering and
certainly in Iraq and and and I think a
lot of Muslims feel that and they're
incredibly frustrated because they are a
voiceless community that that they
really believe is not being listened to
and unfortunately I mean I I personally
really feel that want to want one of the
things that these extremist elements are
is that they are a scream or a shout for
an entire civilization and community to
be heard and this is one-fifth of the
world's population and if we don't start
listening I really feel that it is going
to get worse and and that and that will
be just a tragic calling you surely
don't equate all Muslims with the kind
of actions that we saw by people
claiming to be part of that faith on
September the 11th and they weren't
actually they weren't at obeying the
rules of against the cream I don't I
don't equate all Muslims this is the
point I'm saying there is a problem too
often too often they're they use this
excuse or that excuse of to accuse
certain thing look as a Christian that
central tenant of my faith tells me to
forgive my enemy doesn't tell me to go
murder my enemy but there are many
people who have claimed Christianity to
be their religion who have attacked and
who have shown aggression : I mean are
you really fearful of jonasson face at
the moment I the point that the sheiks
made is valid they're over the
generations Christians have been far
more responsible for far more deaths I
can accept that but the point is my
daughter doesn't live in the 18th
century or the 17th the 20th she lives
now and I want her to be able to get on
the flight when she's 18
but you can't hold that against every
Muslim : but why why don't we have more
people actually come out and say thank
you very much of that call it was
something that Margaret Thatcher and
said after September the 11th she
wanting to see more leadership from the
Muslim community or as coach and I'm
damming it and there that we had we do
have serious complications here I mean I
think that that overall for instance
Palestine Palestine is incredibly
complicated and and it and it it does
muddy the waters for clear thinking
about things because I think the vast
majority of Muslims do view that the
Palestinians have inherent rights there
and and and what they do even if it's
these extreme acts I mean I I personally
am completely against the use of
violence against as civilians against
women and children and also what would
be termed as as something that is beyond
government authority if you're acting as
a vigilante not without with that I mean
it's just
anarchy and Islam prohibits any type of
vigilantism
will take more calls a 599 six nine
three after the travel but also we have
a statement which has just been received
here it says that the government has
been forced
to make a common statement on airport
security the common speaker has agreed
to the requests made by the
Conservatives at this stage it hasn't
been confirmed whether the Home
Secretary David Blunkett will make this
statement there also their statement on
Iraq from the Foreign Secretary Jack
Straw and the weekly business statement
from the Commons leader Robin Cook so
probably the first will start at 12:30
and Jack Straw on probably at 1:15
you'll hear all of those things here on
five live hello Anna Perth and Kinross
first of all at the a 9m ninety a 93
Broxton roundabout temporary roadworks
are going on until 3:30 this afternoon
they reduced the roundabout to one lane
only so allow for delays on all
approaches in Stirling the a 875 stays
closed for accident recovery between
Balfron and the a8 double one junction
at chemic Hill no change in Cheshire
either they're still clearing the lorry
load from the a 54 northbound at Bosley
north of Congleton so in the meantime
that side of the road stays close in
Derbyshire though the a a 38 has
reopened northbound after an early a car
fire at the 852 Junction at Mark Eaton
the a5 double one in Staffordshire
that's still closed after this morning's
accident on Ashby Road in
burton-upon-trent and on public
transport there are still delays on
London's tube network following this
morning's major signal failure and
erosion by fly travel not all the
weekend stories are sport related we'll
be bringing you the full story and the
background to today's Shuttle disaster
last few minutes nASA has announced that
it started an inquiry started in the
left wind the rest of the space shuttle
was good Stan no challenge if you have
any questions please text
so we can use with Richard Evans and as
Mamiya
Saturday and Sunday nights remain five
live Sheikh Hamza Yusuf is my guest this
morning so many calls so if you can try
and keep your questions brief we would
appreciate it Muhammad in Birmingham
very good morning to you sir
the money share is not a question please
it's Stephen a factor you've been on
record saying a Muslim should revive the
international tradition especially the
classical heritage of of jurisprudence
and many people have actually started
doing that because of your advice but
what they find is that once they start
studying the books and the scholars that
are recommended to traditionally
targeted traditional standing the
teaching that they are a fine is a
teaching which is currently condemned as
being extremist and fundamentalist I
myself try this series Hannity's yet I'm
especially about jihad and the very
first line I have a read of a classical
text of Islam in Judaism on jihad is
that jihadis is observe each other
Muslims regardless of whether
non-muslims attack us or do not attack
us and this is currently being taught in
Islamic settlement seminaries throughout
the Muslim world by traditional scholars
and I find for instance it's what you
are saying currently especially just for
us I recently seem doesn't seem to gel
with what you were saying previously and
I honestly find that there is some sort
of ingenuity here because if we are to
discover our heritage if it has aspects
which are which are not compatible with
Western civilization let's just have the
answer to that because yes well first of
all I would say that you know jihad is
an obligation binding upon Muslims which
is defense of the homelands it's also
the removal of aggression but the
normative practice of the Muslims has
always been that aggression is
prohibited the the Quran is very clear
on that
let attitude don't be aggressive in your
Wars the Quran says if they incline
towards peace then you too should
incline towards peace the Quran permits
and certainly in traditional
jurisprudence the treaties with with non
Muslim nations and those treaties to be
honored you will find
differing views there is no doubt
because like I said earlier
Islam is not theocratic in we know
exactly what God meant but it's human
attempts at understanding what God means
and that is why first of all most of
those laws that deal with international
relations that deal with these have
nothing to do with your average Muslims
and when and when your average Muslims
begin to to take it upon themselves to
implement laws that were that have to do
with state polity and state power this
is where the confusion comes in it's
it's it's none of the average Muslims
business to be attempting to apply laws
that are directed to the rulers of a
country and and this is what's known in
the assumptions for the iron and folic
aphaia and I ain't everybody has to like
praying five times a day paying zakat
these things Keith aya only those people
that need to do it do it the other
people don't do it and certainly in the
in rules relating to government that has
nothing to do with the common people but
I can see where the confusion would lie
though I mean if you are advocating that
people do read these texts no but if
they raise them without without
qualified teachers absolutely you're
gonna have serious problem you can't
just pick up a book and read look in in
England
no one will allow a barrister who has
not been trained in law school to go out
and practice law and constitutional law
is certainly you have to know
interpretive practices hermeneutics you
have to learn how to derive principles I
mean if we had people reading a book on
surgery and going out and performing
surgery on people out there out in the
society it's madness and so you know
this idea that I can pick up my book and
become a weekend Mufti is absolutely in
Sanji MC is very busy dealing with some
of those cases that a mentor Mohammed
yes of course you can and then I want to
ask you a question myself okay the point
being what I'm trying to say first you
mentioned the Taliban themselves the
thing about the Taliban is that they
were a government they were Taliban
which means students they did
Video 2
thanks roommate five live Sheikh Hamza
Yusuf is my guest this morning so many
calls so if you can try and keep your
questions brief we would appreciate it's
Mohammed in Birmingham very good morning
to you sir question please
it's Stephen a fact that you've been on
record saying a Muslim should revive the
international tradition especially the
classical heritage of of jurisprudence
and many people have actually started
doing that because of your advice
hmm but what they find is that once they
start studying the books and the
scholars that are recommended to
traditionally forgive a tradition
understanding the teaching that they
have they find is a teaching which is
currently condemned as being extremist
and fundamentalist I myself try this
sorry honey jisuk I'm especially about
jihad and the very first line I have a
read of a classical text of Islamic
jurisprudence on jihad is that jihadis
is observe each other Muslims regardless
of whether non-muslims attack us or do
not attack us and this is currently
being taught in Islamic settlement
seminaries throughout the Muslim world
by traditional scholars and I find for
instance it's what you are saying
currently especially just for us I
recently seemed doesn't seem to gel with
what you were saying previously and I
honestly find that there is some sort of
ingenuity here because if we are to
discover our heritage
how if it has aspects which are which
are not compatible with Western
civilization let's just have the answer
to that because yes well first of all I
would say that you know jihad is an
obligation binding upon Muslims which is
defense of the homelands it's also the
removal of aggression but the normative
practice of the Muslims has always been
that aggression is prohibited the the
Quran is very clear on that
latitude don't be aggressive in your
Wars the Quran says if they incline
towards peace then you too should
incline towards peace the Quran permits
and certainly in traditional
jurisprudence the
treaties with with non Muslim nations
and those treaties to be honored you
will find differing views there is no
doubt because like I said earlier Islam
is not theocratic in we know exactly
what God meant but it's human attempts
at understanding what God means and that
is why first of all most of those laws
that deal with international relations
that deal with these have nothing to do
with your average Muslims and when and
when your average Muslims begin to to
take it upon themselves to implement
laws that were that have to do with
state polity and state power this is
where the confusion comes in it's it's
it's none of the average Muslims
business to be attempting to apply laws
that are directed to the rulers of a
country and and this is what's known in
the Assumption is fought at the iron and
fourth Keith ayah and I ain't everybody
has to like praying five times a day
paying zakat these things Keith aya only
those people that need to do it do it
the other people don't do it and
certainly in the in rules relating to
government that has nothing to do with
the common people but I can see where
the confusion would lie though I mean if
you are advocating that people do read
these tests no but if they raise them
without without qualified teachers
absolutely you're gonna have serious
problem you can't just pick up a book
and read look in in England no one will
allow a barrister who has not been
trained in law school to go out and
practice law and constitutional law is
certainly you have to know interpretive
practices hermeneutics you have to learn
how to derive principles I mean if we
had people reading a book on surgery and
going out and performing surgery on
people out there out in the society it's
madness and so you know this idea that I
can pick up my book and become a weekend
Mufti is absolutely insane GMC is very
busy dealing with some of those cases
Mohammed yes of course you can and then
I want to ask you a question myself okay
the point being what I'm trying to say
first you mention the Taliban themselves
the thing about the Taliban is that they
were a government they were
barring students they didn't pick up
books and just apply Islamic law they
were they were advised by the ami
scholars of a certain tradition in
Pakistan the Deobandi school they
themselves have scholars and they in
fact interpreted the understanding of
Islam and the party on that on their
nation and that was condemned by the
rest of the world
yet yet from from their perspective they
were implementing Islamic law to
qualified opinion and their
interpretation has been accepted but a
lot of Muslims in the world and it's an
interpretation and if they are condemned
you're forcing people who accept that
interpretation into the into an
extremist camp and who decide ultimately
do you think Mohammed do you feel that
you are either tempted or you feel
obliged to follow ye have because of
what you've read and because of what you
believe you've been told no what I want
to do is I want to understand my Islamic
heritage and learn from traditional
scholars about Islam exactly what share
Hamza wishes Muslims to do unfortunately
my scholars are the same scholars who
learned with the Taliban and it cannot
be said that the scholars saying in
Mauritania or in Egypt who have a more
liberal understanding a better Islamic
scholars and scholars that the Taliban
is the agenda but they are both follow a
tradition now I want to study Islam and
then I want Muslims to implement in
their lives they shouldn't force the
amongst other people but then they
shouldn't be condemned by people for
implementing which is traditional Islam
and then said oh these are people these
are fundamentalist I mean we have
certain penal laws in the sand or other
laws but we'll we will always be
condemned for applying our laws first of
all I mean just in penal punishments
there's six pino punishments in the
entire the sama corpus all the other
ones are going to the category of a
judge's discretion in those six all of
them should be avoided to the best of
one's ability but the point that it
comes to the I mean they said in 800
years the Ottomans didn't cut off any
hands or stone any adulterers be because
people people veiled people's faults if
somebody stole from you if you forgive
them they then they're not punished for
it but if you if you take it to the
authorities then the authorities are
obliged
implement the law a lot of Muslims don't
understand these solutions about Islamic
law the Taliban will just simply condemn
for even attempting to apply well I
don't know you know that my personal
feeling about thought I was not there I
didn't see it and I and I really felt it
was an immense amount of disinformation
it's well known in the West that the the
first victim or the first the first
casualty of war is the truth and I I
wasn't there I didn't see it so I really
don't like to comment on something that
I just I mean and that is a Islamic
principle that you should withhold
judgment do you really understand
something what is problematic for so
many people though is the interpretation
of something like Sharia law we were
talking about on the honor killings have
nothing to do with Islam
honor killings occur more in in in US
one small segment of the of the Muslim
world and it they occur amongst
Christians and amongst Muslims and they
used to occur Casey well they believe no
it's not theirs there's no absolutely no
basis for its absolute complete
ignorance I'll give you an example there
was a time in America there was a time
in Mexico where people killed their
daughters for dishonouring the family I
mean you know the this is just a type of
a primitive understanding about about
the world that exists in in many many
places and it has nothing to do with
religion and I think when we conflate
religion and culture when we conflate
religion and and human behavior then
we're in deep trouble I mean I think at
the essence of the Islamic tradition
certainly the the great world religions
at the essence of these traditions is
the concept of mercy I mean the plan
begins in the name of God the merciful
the compassionate because she's
dishonored me as certainly I think has
nothing to do with the concept of mercy
sure but then why isn't more of a
challenge May's in those states I mean
let's say in Jordan by honor killing is
condemned honor killing is condemned by
all I've never met anybody in the Muslim
world and I lived in the Arab world for
it for over ten years I've never met
anybody
has justified that they've all seen it
as as something that's wretched and I
think even probably the people that have
perpetrated the crime prior to it
actually happening to them probably
would have seen it as odious but it
becomes I mean this is the nature of
cultures are very deep and they have
dark elements I mean we have dark
elements here in the United States we've
we've we've we've aborted over 20
million fetuses since Roe vs. Wade
there's a lot of people that consider
that to be an incredibly barbaric act of
genocide of mass murder and I know that
it's certainly a debatable point in in
the secular societies but there are many
the Catholics view that as as one of the
great crimes against humanity and yet it
seems to be an acceptable normative
practice we will pick this up after the
news sport in the weather at so 599 693
here is John Kelly and I keep looking
Envy at the weather in Port Elizabeth
where it's glorious sunny vector octave
issues within 28 degrees now remember
the BBC Sports Department this not yes
I'd like to join my colleagues but there
you go
and then fly the flag back home Emily
but anyway I think it's gonna be very
close finished David my game there's
plenty of life in that one yet so now
we've got a line of discontinuity down
the middle of the country for example
it's six degrees in core war with some
sunshine it's six degrees also in the
Isle of Man without sunshine there's
just two in Bristol and two in
Manchester getting colder from the east
now with its colder weather we are
seeing up the line of discontinuity some
drizzly rain and some sweet - for the
Cotswolds still moving Southwest was
across South Wales and southwest England
during the rest of today and for a time
tonight as well now as it keeps turning
colder it is turning brighter he's
telling much sunnier now in parts of
Lincolnshire and East Anglia and Kent
and this sunnier weather will keep on
moving into central parts this afternoon
and other parts of the southeast as well
so it just set it up for a frosty night
tonight temperatures down to minus 4 so
a hard frost to come in quite a number
of parts of the country whereas further
western north more drizzle to come in
southern and eastern Scotland Northern
Ireland hanging out to some mist and fog
as well especially for the first part of
the afternoon as a weak sunshine amongst
tonight that could be a little bit of
reneges are coming into western parts of
the province and the Outer Hebrides here
frost free but otherwise
from Frost for other parts of Scotland
tonight live News live sports this is
5:00 live it's 7:33 5:00 live News with
Alex Derbyshire Iraq's Deputy Prime
Minister Tareq Aziz has denied
suggestions that Baghdad has missiles
which breach UN resolutions the chief
weapons inspector Hans Blix is expected
to tell the Security Council tomorrow
that Iraq's developed a weapon with the
potential to exceed the UN limit of 115
kilometers the anti-terrorist operation
around the UK's airports is continuing
in response to threats of a terrorist
attack
the Home Secretary David Blunkett will
make a common statement on airport
security this afternoon the Foreign
Secretary Jack Straw will also make a
statement on Iraq detectives
investigating the murder of 19-year old
Marsha MacDonald who died from three
massive blows to the head have confirmed
that they're investigating a similar
incident that took place in January a 17
year old girl suffered head injuries
after a suspected attack in the
Strawberry Hill area of southwest London
French media reports say a Spanish man
charged with killing the British
schoolgirl Caroline Dickinson seven
years ago has admitted the murder 13
year old Caroline was staying at a youth
hostel on a school trip in Brittany when
she was raped and killed by an intruder
she lay in bed and three students from
an agricultural College in Shropshire
have been killed in a road crash three
other men were badly injured in the
accident which happened near the
entrance to Harper Adams University
College near Newport last night thank
you his David Croft with all the sport a
flurry of runs as John Kerry mentioned
at the end of their innings from New
Zealand and their World Cup match
against the West Indies in Port
Elizabeth Simon Mann has all the details
they finished on 241 for 7 from their 50
overs that was a good effort from New
Zealand after being 147 per six in the
33rd they got there thanks to a sensible
innings from wicket keeper Brendon
McCullum who was 36 not out and scible
ignorance from andre adams who finished
35 not atany got those runs from 24
balls with two sixes and a four New
Zealand's struggled early on Stephen
Fleming 25 Vettori 13s tyrus 5 they were
66 for 3 then a good stand
ah Stalin can for them both went in
quick succession aster was caught behind
although don't hit it off Heinz and cans
went too long off also off hind to
finish with three four thirty five so
Weston is need two hundred and forty two
to win the very interesting see how it
works out of England's cricketers should
have been in Harare today playing their
opening World Cup match against involve
way and
Video 3
involved three days cool from Kingsbury
three to Vega morning good money to see
a thousand I heard about your work about
12 years ago from somebody who come from
the state and I've been praying
fervently since then that we have more
people like you now a hundred my
question to you is ever since the speech
on the axis of evil it's feeling more
and more like a crusade visibly
Christianity versus Islam do you
perceive this modern conflict in the
Middle East as a clash of civilizations
or is it a clash of religious belief I
would call it a crash of civilizations I
think it's absolutely the absence of
civilization that leads to to these type
of conflicts in terms of a crusade I
think that there's no doubt that there
there are certain elements in the u.s.
that have a crusader mentality and we
see this in in the fundamentalist
Christian branch and and and there are
people within the the administration
that definitely cater to do that to that
element I think that America by and
large is as a country and certainly the
government is not opposed to a
secularized Islam that is an Islam that
does really not impinge on the society
at large but I think when we talk about
in Islam for instance that prohibits
usery interest a lot of modern banking
schemes an Islam that also permits
people to defend their homelands and
things like this against aggression yeah
I think that there is definitely a
feeling in the government that they do
not want to see this type of a song
because it's antithetical to their
interests in the region
and I think at root for most of these
people I don't think they're they're
ideologically committed to the Christian
religion to to put it in those terms I
think it's much more simply about power
politics and a kind of Machiavellian
attempt at
having their hegemonic concerns in the
region fulfilled Blair and bush' both
said they to share a very similar
platform of Christianity you've spent a
bit of time at least with President Bush
do you believe that Christianity lies
somewhere within his kind of remit and
purpose
I think definitely he's got a Christian
some type of adherence to the Christian
religion no doubt it helped him through
his alcoholism but again I think that
the people around Bush by and large I
think our power politicians and and I
think that religion probably plays less
of a role in their minds than political
concern do you believe my good buddies
very wrong about that but that's that's
my gut feel okay
deeply that President Bush's at all
credible to a Muslim audience no I I
think that by and large that America has
lost all credibility in the Muslim world
I think that many many Muslims actually
look towards America certainly during
the 50s and 60s as being a force that
might help them get out of the yoke of
despotic regimes but America ended up
not only supporting but actively
supporting many of these regimes
certainly Saddam Hussein is a creation
by and large of of the United States and
I think that's where unfortunately the
hypocrisy is much more evident to to
most of the Muslims and I think it's
tragic in a sense because I think the
ideals that America was founded upon our
powerful ideals and and and they're
rooted also in in the Islamic tradition
as well the ideals of self-determination
and and the right for people to pursue
happiness and which of the bits say that
really don't fit where between American
culture and society now well I've never
coached yeah I think that probably some
of the most distasteful aspects
of of Western culture generally are not
just distasteful to Muslims I think many
just good people in in the West find the
the pornographic element the the the
immorality that has kind of permeated
our culture I mean I've got children I
don't like my children to look at
billboards and and see and it's not that
I think that bodies are disgusting and I
don't but but I think that there's
there's a time and a place for
everything and I certainly don't feel
that that type of sexuality should be
publicly displayed those aspects and I
think that the by and large Muslims
share those with a lot of people in the
West does tiny bear have a credibility
to a Muslim audience I think that that
Blair I mean Michael Moore said that you
know when you see Tony Blair and George
Bush standing side by side he said you
see one intelligent man and you wonder
what he's doing with the other one I
mean that might be a little unfair but I
do think that it's very sad that labor
has completely capitulated and I did
remark that it troubles me that the
great the the great line of Great
Britain has become a feather in the tail
of the American Eagle I mean I think
that that Great Britain should play an
extraordinary role of being a moral
voice in the West and I think that that
Great Britain can be that voice that
reminds America that not only is the
path that it's pursuing a dangerous one
but it's the one that Great Britain
herself has been down and that's the
path of empire and ultimately it leads
to failure and and I think that the the
British people are acutely aware of that
because they saw it in their own history
and joins us from Glasgow morning in
hello yes good wine I'd like to know how
I define empire because at the height of
the Ottoman Empire in the 20th century I
don't know if your listeners are aware
of this or not the worst atrocities
committed in the history of mankind
prior to the first and second world wars
was committed by the turkey Muslims
against the Armenians you know 1 million
to one and a half million Christians
killed because they were not of the
faith of the Muslim that's
I just also please may I speak because
we do have freedom of speech in this
country in certain Islamic countries I
would not be able to express myself as I
am just now and there with you if I was
in certain Islamic countries hmm
could I just also say to you that um it
seems extraordinary that we have a
situation just now where everything
seems to be down to the the the satanic
west where in fact if you consider the
history of the Islamic faith you do seem
to be based you-you-you tenets on heat
another moderation that you have a
problem I think with the moderate
Muslims should be challenging the
authority of the extremists the mullahs
in the Imams if you don't have that
situation then I'm afraid that the rest
of the world the rest of the major
religions of the world I'm going to
perceive the Islamic faith as based on
fear and injustice which particular
states and regimes are you talking about
well in Egypt for example you do have
what you would call a moderate Muslim
country where I believe 20% of the the
population in Egypt is not of the Muslim
faith but you have you have Islamic
extremists in that country where if they
were to take over the mainstream people
in Egypt is now they would reduce the
the Muslim the non-muslims to zero in
Saudi Arabia for example you only have
one religion permitted there which is
based on a hideous regime where all
sorts of atrocious the sentences are
passed on individuals because they dare
challenge the authority of that well
let's just let's just try to tackle that
shake hands would you admit and that
that does need to be more
forward-thinking a wider appreciation of
freedoms that the West have embraced in
some parts of the Muslim world
absolutely I mean I don't first address
the the idea that the the Ottomans that
this the worst atrocity ever in the
history of I mean that's blatantly false
it's well known the the Armenian tragedy
that did happen happened but by most
historians there there was a recognized
exaggeration of numbers because of anti
Russian propaganda at the time but a
rather anti Turkish propaganda at the
time based on Britain's interests there
but but the point about the the Ottomans
at that point was already a secularized
government in fact the Armenians were
well known to be one at one of the few
communities in in that region that had
reached very very high levels within the
Ottoman government itself ministerial
levels and things like that and I think
the Ottomans actually by and large with
their atrocities because like any
empires they did have their atrocities
but by and large they were known to be
one of the most tolerant civilizations
in the pre-modern world certainly right
in the modern world in the modern world
we've got a real serious problem in the
Muslim world there's no doubt and I
think that the suffering that goes on
again is is I mean I lived in the Muslim
world and I certainly many of the things
that I saw I think the the the the abuse
of women in in in many of the the
countries that has to do with just
ignorant I really feel that and and it
wasn't that long I mean we forget that
women didn't inherit in this country in
the 19th century I mean we kind of pride
ourselves on these leaps and bounds that
we've made in the last few decades but
the reality of it is I mean if we look
at our own history I mean the it took
quite a considerable amount of time to
achieve certain things that we've
achieved in the West and I think that in
the different surely is that they're
mean the suffragette movement in this
country was one where women were
prepared to lose their own lives in the
name of freedom whereas if you're a
woman living in Jordan or Saudi Arabia
the moment you are more likely to lose
your life at the hands of the state if
you try and pursue ultimate freedom than
at your own hands and that surely is
wrong and you can you know you can say I
can adjourn you have to look forward
exactly and I'm not going to what I'm
saying is that change
does take time I mean we forget the
revolutions that we've had we forget all
the blood that's been spilt in in in
Western civilization that we can speak
freely you know many of us would have
been plebeians in another age we
wouldn't even have the right to be
discussing government policy that was
the the right of the Lord's and and and
the aristocracy
well people fought and died in order for
us to have these and and people just
kind of forget that they think that we
we just it's always been like this is it
hasn't always been like this and I think
it's going to take a lot of time say for
other parts of the world to achieve
certain levels of liberty and freedom
and I would like to see it done without
the type of bloodshed that has occurred
and I think that it's it's very easy for
us to point our fingers at other
societies and civilizations I'm not
defending the Muslim world per se I I'm
I grew up in California I was raised by
a woman who was very active my mother
was very active in the civil rights III
grew up in a liberal progressive
tradition I'm not going to to defend
despotism I'm not going to defend the
the atrocious human rights records in in
many parts not just of the Muslim world
but around the world but I'm certainly
also very aware of how easy it is to
attack that world without really
understanding it at a much deeper level
I mean if you take a book by the
brilliant British historian David Franck
and a piece to end all peace I mean he
shows you that it was in fact Britain
and France that set up a type of
scenario in the Middle East would that
would ensure that the that the countries
in that area would remain in this type
of morass isn't the real danger in
taking all those lessons from history
that the place that we find ourselves in
at the moment which is slightly kind of
fists up between two massive cultures
will actually lead to both suffering
there will not be the time this is
progression thank you I mean I that is
exactly how I feel and I think that if
we don't listen to each other and it's
going to be very difficult but it's
going to take
real intelligence and and and reason and
and I think that's what human beings
unfortunately are not very adept at when
they're when they're just constantly in
the turmoil and agitation of crises
management it's been wonderful having
you here thank you very much indeed for
coming in so huge they can see you so
thank you for all the calls and I know
that we didn't manage to put very many
honor but we do appreciate the fact that
you're listening and wanting to get
involved here's Anna with the travel in
sterling the a 875 remains closed while
Stan accidents recovered between Balfron
and the a8 double one junction at kamek
hill
you