BBC Interview: 5 Live

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Event Name: BBC Interview: 5 Live
Transcription Date:Transcription Modified Date: 4/9/2019
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especially the

classical heritage of of jurisprudence

and many people have actually started

doing that because of your advice but

what they find is that once they start

studying the books and the scholars that

are recommended to traditionally

targeted traditional standing the

teaching that they are a fine is a

teaching which is currently condemned as

being extremist and fundamentalist I

myself try this series Hannity's yet I'm

especially about jihad and the very

first line I have a read of a classical

text of Islam in Judaism on jihad is

that jihadis is observe each other

Muslims regardless of whether

non-muslims attack us or do not attack

us and this is currently being taught in

Islamic settlement seminaries throughout

the Muslim world by traditional scholars

and I find for instance it's what you

are saying currently especially just for

us I recently seem doesn't seem to gel

with what you were saying previously and

I honestly find that there is some sort

of ingenuity here because if we are to

discover our heritage if it has aspects

which are which are not compatible with

Western civilization let's just have the

answer to that because yes well first of

all I would say that you know jihad is

an obligation binding upon Muslims which

is defense of the homelands it's also

the removal of aggression but the

normative practice of the Muslims has

always been that aggression is

prohibited the the Quran is very clear

on that

let attitude don't be aggressive in your

Wars the Quran says if they incline

towards peace then you too should

incline towards peace the Quran permits

and certainly in traditional

jurisprudence the treaties with with non

Muslim nations and those treaties to be

honored you will find

differing views there is no doubt

because like I said earlier

Islam is not theocratic in we know

exactly what God meant but it's human

attempts at understanding what God means

and that is why first of all most of

those laws that deal with international

relations that deal with these have

nothing to do with your average Muslims

and when and when your average Muslims

begin to to take it upon themselves to

implement laws that were that have to do

with state polity and state power this

is where the confusion comes in it's

it's it's none of the average Muslims

business to be attempting to apply laws

that are directed to the rulers of a

country and and this is what's known in

the assumptions for the iron and folic

aphaia and I ain't everybody has to like

praying five times a day paying zakat

these things Keith aya only those people

that need to do it do it the other

people don't do it and certainly in the

in rules relating to government that has

nothing to do with the common people but

I can see where the confusion would lie

though I mean if you are advocating that

people do read these texts no but if

they raise them without without

qualified teachers absolutely you're

gonna have serious problem you can't

just pick up a book and read look in in

England

no one will allow a barrister who has

not been trained in law school to go out

and practice law and constitutional law

is certainly you have to know

interpretive practices hermeneutics you

have to learn how to derive principles I

mean if we had people reading a book on

surgery and going out and performing

surgery on people out there out in the

society it's madness and so you know

this idea that I can pick up my book and

become a weekend Mufti is absolutely in

Sanji MC is very busy dealing with some

of those cases that a mentor Mohammed

yes of course you can and then I want to

ask you a question myself okay the point

being what I'm trying to say first you

mentioned the Taliban themselves the

thing about the Taliban is that they

were a government they were Taliban

which means students they did

Video 2

thanks roommate five live Sheikh Hamza

Yusuf is my guest this morning so many

calls so if you can try and keep your

questions brief we would appreciate it's

Mohammed in Birmingham very good morning

to you sir question please

it's Stephen a fact that you've been on

record saying a Muslim should revive the

international tradition especially the

classical heritage of of jurisprudence

and many people have actually started

doing that because of your advice

hmm but what they find is that once they

start studying the books and the

scholars that are recommended to

traditionally forgive a tradition

understanding the teaching that they

have they find is a teaching which is

currently condemned as being extremist

and fundamentalist I myself try this

sorry honey jisuk I'm especially about

jihad and the very first line I have a

read of a classical text of Islamic

jurisprudence on jihad is that jihadis

is observe each other Muslims regardless

of whether non-muslims attack us or do

not attack us and this is currently

being taught in Islamic settlement

seminaries throughout the Muslim world

by traditional scholars and I find for

instance it's what you are saying

currently especially just for us I

recently seemed doesn't seem to gel with

what you were saying previously and I

honestly find that there is some sort of

ingenuity here because if we are to

discover our heritage

how if it has aspects which are which

are not compatible with Western

civilization let's just have the answer

to that because yes well first of all I

would say that you know jihad is an

obligation binding upon Muslims which is

defense of the homelands it's also the

removal of aggression but the normative

practice of the Muslims has always been

that aggression is prohibited the the

Quran is very clear on that

latitude don't be aggressive in your

Wars the Quran says if they incline

towards peace then you too should

incline towards peace the Quran permits

and certainly in traditional

jurisprudence the

treaties with with non Muslim nations

and those treaties to be honored you

will find differing views there is no

doubt because like I said earlier Islam

is not theocratic in we know exactly

what God meant but it's human attempts

at understanding what God means and that

is why first of all most of those laws

that deal with international relations

that deal with these have nothing to do

with your average Muslims and when and

when your average Muslims begin to to

take it upon themselves to implement

laws that were that have to do with

state polity and state power this is

where the confusion comes in it's it's

it's none of the average Muslims

business to be attempting to apply laws

that are directed to the rulers of a

country and and this is what's known in

the Assumption is fought at the iron and

fourth Keith ayah and I ain't everybody

has to like praying five times a day

paying zakat these things Keith aya only

those people that need to do it do it

the other people don't do it and

certainly in the in rules relating to

government that has nothing to do with

the common people but I can see where

the confusion would lie though I mean if

you are advocating that people do read

these tests no but if they raise them

without without qualified teachers

absolutely you're gonna have serious

problem you can't just pick up a book

and read look in in England no one will

allow a barrister who has not been

trained in law school to go out and

practice law and constitutional law is

certainly you have to know interpretive

practices hermeneutics you have to learn

how to derive principles I mean if we

had people reading a book on surgery and

going out and performing surgery on

people out there out in the society it's

madness and so you know this idea that I

can pick up my book and become a weekend

Mufti is absolutely insane GMC is very

busy dealing with some of those cases

Mohammed yes of course you can and then

I want to ask you a question myself okay

the point being what I'm trying to say

first you mention the Taliban themselves

the thing about the Taliban is that they

were a government they were

barring students they didn't pick up

books and just apply Islamic law they

were they were advised by the ami

scholars of a certain tradition in

Pakistan the Deobandi school they

themselves have scholars and they in

fact interpreted the understanding of

Islam and the party on that on their

nation and that was condemned by the

rest of the world

yet yet from from their perspective they

were implementing Islamic law to

qualified opinion and their

interpretation has been accepted but a

lot of Muslims in the world and it's an

interpretation and if they are condemned

you're forcing people who accept that

interpretation into the into an

extremist camp and who decide ultimately

do you think Mohammed do you feel that

you are either tempted or you feel

obliged to follow ye have because of

what you've read and because of what you

believe you've been told no what I want

to do is I want to understand my Islamic

heritage and learn from traditional

scholars about Islam exactly what share

Hamza wishes Muslims to do unfortunately

my scholars are the same scholars who

learned with the Taliban and it cannot

be said that the scholars saying in

Mauritania or in Egypt who have a more

liberal understanding a better Islamic

scholars and scholars that the Taliban

is the agenda but they are both follow a

tradition now I want to study Islam and

then I want Muslims to implement in

their lives they shouldn't force the

amongst other people but then they

shouldn't be condemned by people for

implementing which is traditional Islam

and then said oh these are people these

are fundamentalist I mean we have

certain penal laws in the sand or other

laws but we'll we will always be

condemned for applying our laws first of

all I mean just in penal punishments

there's six pino punishments in the

entire the sama corpus all the other

ones are going to the category of a

judge's discretion in those six all of

them should be avoided to the best of

one's ability but the point that it

comes to the I mean they said in 800

years the Ottomans didn't cut off any

hands or stone any adulterers be because

people people veiled people's faults if

somebody stole from you if you forgive

them they then they're not punished for

it but if you if you take it to the

authorities then the authorities are

obliged

implement the law a lot of Muslims don't

understand these solutions about Islamic

law the Taliban will just simply condemn

for even attempting to apply well I

don't know you know that my personal

feeling about thought I was not there I

didn't see it and I and I really felt it

was an immense amount of disinformation

it's well known in the West that the the

first victim or the first the first

casualty of war is the truth and I I

wasn't there I didn't see it so I really

don't like to comment on something that

I just I mean and that is a Islamic

principle that you should withhold

judgment do you really understand

something what is problematic for so

many people though is the interpretation

of something like Sharia law we were

talking about on the honor killings have

nothing to do with Islam

honor killings occur more in in in US

one small segment of the of the Muslim

world and it they occur amongst

Christians and amongst Muslims and they

used to occur Casey well they believe no

it's not theirs there's no absolutely no

basis for its absolute complete

ignorance I'll give you an example there

was a time in America there was a time

in Mexico where people killed their

daughters for dishonouring the family I

mean you know the this is just a type of

a primitive understanding about about

the world that exists in in many many

places and it has nothing to do with

religion and I think when we conflate

religion and culture when we conflate

religion and and human behavior then

we're in deep trouble I mean I think at

the essence of the Islamic tradition

certainly the the great world religions

at the essence of these traditions is

the concept of mercy I mean the plan

begins in the name of God the merciful

the compassionate because she's

dishonored me as certainly I think has

nothing to do with the concept of mercy

sure but then why isn't more of a

challenge May's in those states I mean

let's say in Jordan by honor killing is

condemned honor killing is condemned by

all I've never met anybody in the Muslim

world and I lived in the Arab world for

it for over ten years I've never met

anybody

has justified that they've all seen it

as as something that's wretched and I

think even probably the people that have

perpetrated the crime prior to it

actually happening to them probably

would have seen it as odious but it

becomes I mean this is the nature of

cultures are very deep and they have

dark elements I mean we have dark

elements here in the United States we've

we've we've we've aborted over 20

million fetuses since Roe vs. Wade

there's a lot of people that consider

that to be an incredibly barbaric act of

genocide of mass murder and I know that

it's certainly a debatable point in in

the secular societies but there are many

the Catholics view that as as one of the

great crimes against humanity and yet it

seems to be an acceptable normative

practice we will pick this up after the

news sport in the weather at so 599 693

here is John Kelly and I keep looking

Envy at the weather in Port Elizabeth

where it's glorious sunny vector octave

issues within 28 degrees now remember

the BBC Sports Department this not yes

I'd like to join my colleagues but there

you go

and then fly the flag back home Emily

but anyway I think it's gonna be very

close finished David my game there's

plenty of life in that one yet so now

we've got a line of discontinuity down

the middle of the country for example

it's six degrees in core war with some

sunshine it's six degrees also in the

Isle of Man without sunshine there's

just two in Bristol and two in

Manchester getting colder from the east

now with its colder weather we are

seeing up the line of discontinuity some

drizzly rain and some sweet - for the

Cotswolds still moving Southwest was

across South Wales and southwest England

during the rest of today and for a time

tonight as well now as it keeps turning

colder it is turning brighter he's

telling much sunnier now in parts of

Lincolnshire and East Anglia and Kent

and this sunnier weather will keep on

moving into central parts this afternoon

and other parts of the southeast as well

so it just set it up for a frosty night

tonight temperatures down to minus 4 so

a hard frost to come in quite a number

of parts of the country whereas further

western north more drizzle to come in

southern and eastern Scotland Northern

Ireland hanging out to some mist and fog

as well especially for the first part of

the afternoon as a weak sunshine amongst

tonight that could be a little bit of

reneges are coming into western parts of

the province and the Outer Hebrides here

frost free but otherwise

from Frost for other parts of Scotland

tonight live News live sports this is

5:00 live it's 7:33 5:00 live News with

Alex Derbyshire Iraq's Deputy Prime

Minister Tareq Aziz has denied

suggestions that Baghdad has missiles

which breach UN resolutions the chief

weapons inspector Hans Blix is expected

to tell the Security Council tomorrow

that Iraq's developed a weapon with the

potential to exceed the UN limit of 115

kilometers the anti-terrorist operation

around the UK's airports is continuing

in response to threats of a terrorist

attack

the Home Secretary David Blunkett will

make a common statement on airport

security this afternoon the Foreign

Secretary Jack Straw will also make a

statement on Iraq detectives

investigating the murder of 19-year old

Marsha MacDonald who died from three

massive blows to the head have confirmed

that they're investigating a similar

incident that took place in January a 17

year old girl suffered head injuries

after a suspected attack in the

Strawberry Hill area of southwest London

French media reports say a Spanish man

charged with killing the British

schoolgirl Caroline Dickinson seven

years ago has admitted the murder 13

year old Caroline was staying at a youth

hostel on a school trip in Brittany when

she was raped and killed by an intruder

she lay in bed and three students from

an agricultural College in Shropshire

have been killed in a road crash three

other men were badly injured in the

accident which happened near the

entrance to Harper Adams University

College near Newport last night thank

you his David Croft with all the sport a

flurry of runs as John Kerry mentioned

at the end of their innings from New

Zealand and their World Cup match

against the West Indies in Port

Elizabeth Simon Mann has all the details

they finished on 241 for 7 from their 50

overs that was a good effort from New

Zealand after being 147 per six in the

33rd they got there thanks to a sensible

innings from wicket keeper Brendon

McCullum who was 36 not out and scible

ignorance from andre adams who finished

35 not atany got those runs from 24

balls with two sixes and a four New

Zealand's struggled early on Stephen

Fleming 25 Vettori 13s tyrus 5 they were

66 for 3 then a good stand

ah Stalin can for them both went in

quick succession aster was caught behind

although don't hit it off Heinz and cans

went too long off also off hind to

finish with three four thirty five so

Weston is need two hundred and forty two

to win the very interesting see how it

works out of England's cricketers should

have been in Harare today playing their

opening World Cup match against involve

way and

Video 3

involved three days cool from Kingsbury

three to Vega morning good money to see

a thousand I heard about your work about

12 years ago from somebody who come from

the state and I've been praying

fervently since then that we have more

people like you now a hundred my

question to you is ever since the speech

on the axis of evil it's feeling more

and more like a crusade visibly

Christianity versus Islam do you

perceive this modern conflict in the

Middle East as a clash of civilizations

or is it a clash of religious belief I

would call it a crash of civilizations I

think it's absolutely the absence of

civilization that leads to to these type

of conflicts in terms of a crusade I

think that there's no doubt that there

there are certain elements in the u.s.

that have a crusader mentality and we

see this in in the fundamentalist

Christian branch and and and there are

people within the the administration

that definitely cater to do that to that

element I think that America by and

large is as a country and certainly the

government is not opposed to a

secularized Islam that is an Islam that

does really not impinge on the society

at large but I think when we talk about

in Islam for instance that prohibits

usery interest a lot of modern banking

schemes an Islam that also permits

people to defend their homelands and

things like this against aggression yeah

I think that there is definitely a

feeling in the government that they do

not want to see this type of a song

because it's antithetical to their

interests in the region

and I think at root for most of these

people I don't think they're they're

ideologically committed to the Christian

religion to to put it in those terms I

think it's much more simply about power

politics and a kind of Machiavellian

attempt at

having their hegemonic concerns in the

region fulfilled Blair and bush' both

said they to share a very similar

platform of Christianity you've spent a

bit of time at least with President Bush

do you believe that Christianity lies

somewhere within his kind of remit and

purpose

I think definitely he's got a Christian

some type of adherence to the Christian

religion no doubt it helped him through

his alcoholism but again I think that

the people around Bush by and large I

think our power politicians and and I

think that religion probably plays less

of a role in their minds than political

concern do you believe my good buddies

very wrong about that but that's that's

my gut feel okay

deeply that President Bush's at all

credible to a Muslim audience no I I

think that by and large that America has

lost all credibility in the Muslim world

I think that many many Muslims actually

look towards America certainly during

the 50s and 60s as being a force that

might help them get out of the yoke of

despotic regimes but America ended up

not only supporting but actively

supporting many of these regimes

certainly Saddam Hussein is a creation

by and large of of the United States and

I think that's where unfortunately the

hypocrisy is much more evident to to

most of the Muslims and I think it's

tragic in a sense because I think the

ideals that America was founded upon our

powerful ideals and and and they're

rooted also in in the Islamic tradition

as well the ideals of self-determination

and and the right for people to pursue

happiness and which of the bits say that

really don't fit where between American

culture and society now well I've never

coached yeah I think that probably some

of the most distasteful aspects

of of Western culture generally are not

just distasteful to Muslims I think many

just good people in in the West find the

the pornographic element the the the

immorality that has kind of permeated

our culture I mean I've got children I

don't like my children to look at

billboards and and see and it's not that

I think that bodies are disgusting and I

don't but but I think that there's

there's a time and a place for

everything and I certainly don't feel

that that type of sexuality should be

publicly displayed those aspects and I

think that the by and large Muslims

share those with a lot of people in the

West does tiny bear have a credibility

to a Muslim audience I think that that

Blair I mean Michael Moore said that you

know when you see Tony Blair and George

Bush standing side by side he said you

see one intelligent man and you wonder

what he's doing with the other one I

mean that might be a little unfair but I

do think that it's very sad that labor

has completely capitulated and I did

remark that it troubles me that the

great the the great line of Great

Britain has become a feather in the tail

of the American Eagle I mean I think

that that Great Britain should play an

extraordinary role of being a moral

voice in the West and I think that that

Great Britain can be that voice that

reminds America that not only is the

path that it's pursuing a dangerous one

but it's the one that Great Britain

herself has been down and that's the

path of empire and ultimately it leads

to failure and and I think that the the

British people are acutely aware of that

because they saw it in their own history

and joins us from Glasgow morning in

hello yes good wine I'd like to know how

I define empire because at the height of

the Ottoman Empire in the 20th century I

don't know if your listeners are aware

of this or not the worst atrocities

committed in the history of mankind

prior to the first and second world wars

was committed by the turkey Muslims

against the Armenians you know 1 million

to one and a half million Christians

killed because they were not of the

faith of the Muslim that's

I just also please may I speak because

we do have freedom of speech in this

country in certain Islamic countries I

would not be able to express myself as I

am just now and there with you if I was

in certain Islamic countries hmm

could I just also say to you that um it

seems extraordinary that we have a

situation just now where everything

seems to be down to the the the satanic

west where in fact if you consider the

history of the Islamic faith you do seem

to be based you-you-you tenets on heat

another moderation that you have a

problem I think with the moderate

Muslims should be challenging the

authority of the extremists the mullahs

in the Imams if you don't have that

situation then I'm afraid that the rest

of the world the rest of the major

religions of the world I'm going to

perceive the Islamic faith as based on

fear and injustice which particular

states and regimes are you talking about

well in Egypt for example you do have

what you would call a moderate Muslim

country where I believe 20% of the the

population in Egypt is not of the Muslim

faith but you have you have Islamic

extremists in that country where if they

were to take over the mainstream people

in Egypt is now they would reduce the

the Muslim the non-muslims to zero in

Saudi Arabia for example you only have

one religion permitted there which is

based on a hideous regime where all

sorts of atrocious the sentences are

passed on individuals because they dare

challenge the authority of that well

let's just let's just try to tackle that

shake hands would you admit and that

that does need to be more

forward-thinking a wider appreciation of

freedoms that the West have embraced in

some parts of the Muslim world

absolutely I mean I don't first address

the the idea that the the Ottomans that

this the worst atrocity ever in the

history of I mean that's blatantly false

it's well known the the Armenian tragedy

that did happen happened but by most

historians there there was a recognized

exaggeration of numbers because of anti

Russian propaganda at the time but a

rather anti Turkish propaganda at the

time based on Britain's interests there

but but the point about the the Ottomans

at that point was already a secularized

government in fact the Armenians were

well known to be one at one of the few

communities in in that region that had

reached very very high levels within the

Ottoman government itself ministerial

levels and things like that and I think

the Ottomans actually by and large with

their atrocities because like any

empires they did have their atrocities

but by and large they were known to be

one of the most tolerant civilizations

in the pre-modern world certainly right

in the modern world in the modern world

we've got a real serious problem in the

Muslim world there's no doubt and I

think that the suffering that goes on

again is is I mean I lived in the Muslim

world and I certainly many of the things

that I saw I think the the the the abuse

of women in in in many of the the

countries that has to do with just

ignorant I really feel that and and it

wasn't that long I mean we forget that

women didn't inherit in this country in

the 19th century I mean we kind of pride

ourselves on these leaps and bounds that

we've made in the last few decades but

the reality of it is I mean if we look

at our own history I mean the it took

quite a considerable amount of time to

achieve certain things that we've

achieved in the West and I think that in

the different surely is that they're

mean the suffragette movement in this

country was one where women were

prepared to lose their own lives in the

name of freedom whereas if you're a

woman living in Jordan or Saudi Arabia

the moment you are more likely to lose

your life at the hands of the state if

you try and pursue ultimate freedom than

at your own hands and that surely is

wrong and you can you know you can say I

can adjourn you have to look forward

exactly and I'm not going to what I'm

saying is that change

does take time I mean we forget the

revolutions that we've had we forget all

the blood that's been spilt in in in

Western civilization that we can speak

freely you know many of us would have

been plebeians in another age we

wouldn't even have the right to be

discussing government policy that was

the the right of the Lord's and and and

the aristocracy

well people fought and died in order for

us to have these and and people just

kind of forget that they think that we

we just it's always been like this is it

hasn't always been like this and I think

it's going to take a lot of time say for

other parts of the world to achieve

certain levels of liberty and freedom

and I would like to see it done without

the type of bloodshed that has occurred

and I think that it's it's very easy for

us to point our fingers at other

societies and civilizations I'm not

defending the Muslim world per se I I'm

I grew up in California I was raised by

a woman who was very active my mother

was very active in the civil rights III

grew up in a liberal progressive

tradition I'm not going to to defend

despotism I'm not going to defend the

the atrocious human rights records in in

many parts not just of the Muslim world

but around the world but I'm certainly

also very aware of how easy it is to

attack that world without really

understanding it at a much deeper level

I mean if you take a book by the

brilliant British historian David Franck

and a piece to end all peace I mean he

shows you that it was in fact Britain

and France that set up a type of

scenario in the Middle East would that

would ensure that the that the countries

in that area would remain in this type

of morass isn't the real danger in

taking all those lessons from history

that the place that we find ourselves in

at the moment which is slightly kind of

fists up between two massive cultures

will actually lead to both suffering

there will not be the time this is

progression thank you I mean I that is

exactly how I feel and I think that if

we don't listen to each other and it's

going to be very difficult but it's

going to take

real intelligence and and and reason and

and I think that's what human beings

unfortunately are not very adept at when

they're when they're just constantly in

the turmoil and agitation of crises

management it's been wonderful having

you here thank you very much indeed for

coming in so huge they can see you so

thank you for all the calls and I know

that we didn't manage to put very many

honor but we do appreciate the fact that

you're listening and wanting to get

involved here's Anna with the travel in

sterling the a 875 remains closed while

Stan accidents recovered between Balfron

and the a8 double one junction at kamek

hill

you