human right but how do you do that how
do we become human this is where the
whole issue becomes problematic and I
think this is where Islam's agenda for
humanizing people is so bad where I
don't know whether you call it agenda
it's a process I think well I'm using
agenda see we're looking at negative
terms again that can be yeah yes I mean
a song does have an agenda and its
agendas to transform people into into
kind of crude assemblance --is of benny
atom or the Adamic species to a true
Adamic being a true human being I mean I
definitely think that conscience with a
conscience and the most radical way of
doing that is how many people pray
together five times a day yes you you're
praying in a line in a rank with people
a black man as I'm on your right side a
white man's on your left side of
chinese' you know and this is something
pretty extraordinary and the whole idea
of having being forced to touch them
yeah you know yes which is not shouldn't
be field force it should be a longing or
as desire for that closeness and that
intimacy that takes place in prayer so
that the social aspect Rama bond yeah no
I think there's no question that in in
all those and universalizing Ramadan
yeah the idea that we're all one fifth
of the world's population is in fasting
yes one month out of the year together I
mean you talk about harmonic convergence
so you spent about ten years and you
know when I came back here you came back
to Northern California yeah actually
Southern California and I studied I was
studying homeopathy and then I was
studying I went into nursing program and
completed nursing school
yes program then I went to I was working
in nursing and then went back to the
University to do a program comparative
so how long that take the um well
altogether it's been about seven years
till you finish that yeah I'm I'm
actually now gonna probably hopefully
next year be doing some graduate work
wonderful so where are you finding all
this time well I just it's making time
for I mean I'm very very time conscious
I'm conscious of the hourglass ticking
away so I just try to utilize it in that
in Santa Fe awesome absolutely man is in
Los with x passage except for those who
don't waste their time that's right so I
just try not to waste time time is very
valuable to me what have you what sort
of relationship now have you got with
your parents is that all wonderful then
absolutely so they're not both my
parents have a great my sister became
Muslim all of my family now has a very
good idea of what Islam is and I've done
it I think hopefully in a way that you
know I'm not condemning them or just you
know just I think they all have an idea
of what my life's about and I think all
of them they're very impressed with you
know I've won I mean it's quite
difficult to have successful marriage in
in this modern 20th century lay part of
it in in California and you know I'm
doing that my children are thanks god
they're a big grand parents and also I
think being or generally they're very
pleased yeah
well that's nice now coming back to a to
Islam and was its impact on your own
life which is it is obvious since you're
quite actively engaged in learning and
teaching and now what difficulties do
Muslims have in presenting Islam to the
west in a proper way because we talked
earlier on about how Islam is perceived
we didn't talk about our own
rown own responsibility of how we have
even to succeed that good points I think
part of it is the fact that I think
Islam is perceived by the Muslims as
well I mean it's not just a
misperception of the Western people
laugh it's also misperception that the
Muslims haven't and part of that is the
fact that that Islam has been reinvented
or you know what what they term in in
philosophy or religious studies redacted
by late 19th century and 20th century
modernist revision errs of Islam people
have been called the reformers some
people called the deformers what do you
mean I mean I don't really like to get
into specific individuals because I
think you're dealing with on the one
hand infiltration into the Islamic
academic Katter which is which is quite
pernicious but on the other hand you're
dealing with just unfortunately people
that were caught up in the flow of what
was happening I mean when the Muslims
were defeated by the colonialist this
was a great shock to the Muslim Ummah
and and I think what what happened is
suddenly they were having to deal with
the fact we've been defeated by the
Europeans who for centuries the Muslims
had looked down on them as being
unworthy of even their consideration and
you can see some of the letters that
were written by Muslim rulers
unfortunately to the Europeans really
with disdain and and and loathing and so
you know I think that one of the things
that God does is but you tears people
with the thing that the you know with
the medicine that they need to be cured
and the medicine of arrogance and pride
you know the medicine is very bitter
medicine it's called humility and and
Submission and and I think what's
happened to a Muslim world that became
very arrogant and very prideful we have
really been humiliated and if we don't
learn this lesson but have you that's
what my question is I'm asking is there
you you see that we are notice have been
rubbed into the grammar and I don't
think we've learned the lesson yeah
that's what that's what I'm saying but
okay but the wonderful thing about life
is it keeps teaching you to say
lesson over and over again unlike school
here where you can keep graduating on
without having learned anything in the
previous year they'll put you to the
next year that doesn't happen in life
life will just keep giving you the same
lesson over and over again and you get
your diploma when you get the point
right and and we haven't gotten the
point because Muslims still think
somehow that I even hate my BA it gives
you some exalted position by the mere
fact that you state that well if that
was true then the hypocrites would
certainly not be in the lowest portion
of hell because they say that too so
Laila him Allah really on the saying
that saying it has no you know no
meaning unless it's emanating from the
knowledge or any bonusing and if it
emanates from the heart it manifests on
the limbs and if it manifests on the
limbs you have a human being that's
called a Muslim and if it's not you have
somebody that the Quran clearly defines
as a hypocrite I'm gonna have somebody
that in fact the way the Quran
articulates is your hide your own allahu
and levena amma no one not only in that
bosom they attempt and it's Mahad in the
Arabic language is an attempt they
attempt to fool Allah and those who
believe and they only succeed in fooling
themselves and there's another version
which is the washed version which says
while my you had your own event for some
and they only attempt to fool themselves
in other words that self delusion
ultimately yeah you can be self diluted
but ultimately you know in reality what
the truth is so then you notice to
summarize that what we are saying here
then is that the prevailing attitudes
within the Muslim communities that they
haven't really really come to grips with
the humiliating defeat and therefore
they will continue to and this is why we
go around Christian bashing which is a
very common Muslim activity you know to
feel good about ourselves and I point
out how horrific the Christians are I
know isn't that there is a change I mean
what is happening though what do you
think let's let's examine that why is it
worship
meanwhile they say the best definition
of do you have the lashavia or they say
the best definition of madness is to do
the same thing over and over again and
expect different results yeah so I think
in one sense we've been afflicted with a
type of madness and unfortunately
post-traumatic stress syndrome is you
know it has deep repercussions and and I
think the Muslim Ummah as a body is
suffering from post-traumatic stress
yeah but then what are the remedies do
we where is the CPR I mean is now
talking about where is the CPR well many
doctors and nurses for that this is a
good point because I think part of our
struggle is the fact that we do not have
anymore institutions that are producing
human beings of a brilliant intellectual
caliber and a spiritual depth that can
not only diagnose but also treat the
patient and traditionally this has been
the realm of the you know the the UNA
muhammadun who are called the Elia the
people that are close to to God in their
knowledge and in their action and those
people traditionally have guided the
Muslims through their devastating
periods of time well you can see quite
literally that in and I don't like to
get into colonial bashing because I
think it's a real dead end for the
Muslims victimization is a dead-end road
but nonetheless there are some important
features that need to be looked at and
one of them is the fact that our our
libraries our scholars are you know
kanakas and and madrasahs and tech aids
and all these places where there was
spiritual preparation intellectual
preparation of the Muslims they were
literally shut down and not only that
but the government's that were created
and social reform in in Syria is a good
book to look at talks about this the
government's that were created were
created by the colonialist and this is
the fifth column which ultimately I've
never seen historically and historians
would obviously verify this or negate it
but I personally have not seen
historically where there was a
conquering of a people without that
fifth column element and this is why the
Quran says home that I do follow
MacArthur home a lot that the hypocrites
they are the true enemy
and may Allah destroy them because these
are the people that have been complicit
with the the colonial enterprise and the
neo-colonial and we can only say why say
neo-colonial because as far as I'm
concerned colonialism's never ended it's
just changed form because you know the
chameleon-like nature of the West is one
of this most extraordinary features that
it's able to change its its its former
location and this is what media and
television is all about yeah well that
is now cultural imperialism we will come
to that but then what you're again
pointing out is that we are indeed in a
double jeopardy if I might put one but
one is one is that we feel that there is
a conspiracy that the rest has on one
hand on the other hand we do not seem to
acknowledge that we are no more the
power and we are nothing in terms of
amounting to anything we're a scheme of
things right well neither was the
prophets of Medina in the seventh
century you shouldn't forget that no and
the Quran very clearly says come and
Fiat an idea a lot about fear I think at
the beginning that how many times have a
small faction defeated a great factor by
the permission of God and so we have you
know the Muslims that they're obeying
their teachings and practicing then they
have a permission to have an authority
which is very powerful we shouldn't
underestimate it you know but I think
it's you know it's a good point that
that if you if you look you know what
why isn't anything happening and I think
part of it is the fact that that if you
look at the disease what I feel the
greatest articulation of it from the
from the Islamic perspective is the word
itself which is used to designate
everything that is against Islam and
that is Julia and Julia is a word that
in its root meaning means ignorance and
this is the whole argument of Islam that
you you reject the truth out of
ignorance that you only do things that
are bad out of ignorance and this is
Socratic teaching as well I mean even
the Europeans have this idea that that
you know that people don't do bad things
if they really knew
what they were doing and this is part of
what Islam does is it is is ill you know
or what God does through Islam is
listening to open the eyes of people to
let them see and one of my favorite
things that's happened in recent popular
cultures this Kathie Lee Gifford
incident and there was a wonderful
picture of her in Newsweek that
obviously got out some television
broadcasting which is where she's got
this horrified look like you know a
shocked look when she finds out that
she's been supporting a child labor this
whole country is supporting child labor
the clothes were wearing our supporting
child labor the tennis shoes that we jog
in are supporting child labor the soccer
balls the baseball bats that we hit our
baseballs with I mean the whole thing is
supporting child labor don't blame
Kathie Gifford blame the whole country
you see and this is what people don't
want to deal with is that no we have to
look deeply at what's going on what
children and this is this what you're
saying that I mean at the example that
you've used is is is of how should I say
of abusing people or of abusing people
to to create the to support the
consumerism or what-have-you but getting
away from from the people that brings us
to the issue justice and economic
justice and the Quran we'll get into
that but let us talk a little bit too
now of why is it that looking at all of
the the Muslim countries 50 and odd 55
56 I don't know what whatever then I
whatever the number is they've grown is
there still isn't either an awareness
one or acknowledgment or formulation of
some kind of vision or strategy what is
our world view now well this is part of
the crises again I mean we're we're an
Ummah in search of a world view one of
the things that David shidduch in his
vision and the vision of the song
wonderful book this is one of the things
that he puts forward is that the Muslims
have lost sight of a Quranic world
you you know the veldt and shown the
relevance of what you know it's not this
what guy eaten in the Islamic destiny
man calls a Boy Scout religion this is
what we've been reduced to thinking that
Islam is it is going around doing good
deeds no it has a way of viewing the
world of vision and if you don't have
the vision of Islam no matter how
sincere your efforts are you're not
going to be anything other than a
glorified Mormon or a glorified you know
Jehovah's Witness or somebody who's out
because they're doing good deeds I mean
that doesn't the the moral element of
Islam is not what makes us unique as a
community because every community has a
moral element no it's it's the vision
it's what the tradition was called the
Arpita it was the understanding that
islam imparted to human beings which
enabled not only the morality to
function but also for there to be an
absolute clarification of what exactly
morality is because there's a great deal
of confusion in our modern world for
instance but that is confusion within
the muslims to loot li because we don't
have this thing anymore
no you're asking not only that but the
thing that that is interesting now is
that there are muslims and they are
pious Muslims wonderfully powerful if I
absolutely but then if you look at that
if you look at the whole world of Islam
at present these Muslims which who are
pious some of them very few of them are
also actively engaged in a social
emancipation right so all just the rest
of the rest of them well this is the
separation of Deen from Milda because
this LOM has these two concepts it has
the personal which is deemed this is our
relationship with God but also has the
Milda which is the collective group of
what our goal is as a collective body
and the goal of the collective body is
the establishment of social justice
right which is called Sharia the sacred
law now one of the things that you I
want you to answer a little this is
importantly we get back to this colonial
idea the Quran very clearly says then
total Bank of you who do what and asada
had to get me little home
the Jewish a tradition and the Christian
tradition which is not religious it's
the social phenomenon which I now think
is European and America this is the
judeo-christian phenomenon they will not
be content until you follow their Minda
now in the Quran does not say Dean which
is their personal piety or their
personal transactions with God no it
says their Nilla and how they function
up a collective body now the dominant
milla of our of our modernist condition
is the consumer society this is the idol
of the age consumption that we were born
to create to consume now first of all
two interesting things to note one is
the consumer in Old English means the
devil and the Quran says in animal but
didn't wanna shell thing the those who
are equipped to ously extravagant all
the companions or the or the brothers
the Brethren of the say a teen in the
champagne who are you know this perverse
element in human society and in the
human heart which is calling people to
lower functions and so that the idea of
the consumption now it is being
presented to the world as innovation
human as salvation that you will be
happy through buying that you will be
happy if you will have all those goods
that are going to make you happy this is
the constant message of the television
the constant message of media the
message of government's more it will
just make more schools if we can just
put more computers in the school if we
can just have more prisons there'll be
less crime so everything is more that
I'm not cynical either part of
capitalism absolutely well yeah at this
last stage is the epic but what Islam is
saying is no by having less you have
more by diminishing your exterior wants
and increasing your interior wants
because we have interior and exterior
wants our interior wants are not the
same because if I'm coal is my body that
shivering is not my soul and and I can
deal with that I just put a blanket on
and and I can resolve that crisis but if
my soul is shivering then what do I use
to cover up that well you can attempt to
put a blanket which is what consumerism
is you see no no vibe and the blank
doesn't work well here--here's
new and improved right this is what they
love to use in their commercials the new
and improved blanket this will really
make you warm or this new car which you
get this new stereo this new television
it just keeps going and going and going
and in the end this human being is left
consumed because the consumer is
ultimately consumed because life
consumes us
you