need to do more for little quotes whether he does or not that that's you know that's his tow vehicle or not.
But the point is is that I saw that transformation happen in that man. he has a different opinion of Islam after interacting with the intellect and and the legal genius of that man now for me personally, I marry an glendon who's the head of the Commission I gave her the Renovatio journal when I met her we had a very nice conversation I've actually read one of her books I had in my library before I met her rights talk she wrote in 91 but I gave her the journal and in there I had written an article called Medina and Athena restoring a loss magazine. It was about the influence that Greek thought had on the Muslim community and then how the lot of that was transmitted back to Europe she wrote me and I took permission from her to actually quote her on this because I
told her our prophet saw him said that correspondences and and private conversations are sacred trusts you shouldn't actually quote a person in private conversation unless they allow you so I asked her if I could quote her on this and she said by all means she wrote me an email and she said first of all I want to really thank you for accepting you to be part of this but secondly I want to let you know you've already influenced me I teach a course at Harvard law called the origins of legal theory in the West and from now on that course will have a component of it's now going to be Athens Jerusalem and Medina, and that's at Harvard University. Where these young people who might never hear something like that.
Like what's the influence of Muslims on Western law people don't know that Napoleonic law which is one of the most important elements of statute law even in the United States and Louisiana still uses Napoleonic Code.
the Napoleonic law was heavily influenced by Maliki Fiqh. And Napoleon had all of those books translated into French. So these are the things that I want people to see that we are a civilization that's had an incredible impact, and we're a civilization of producers that that the Stars are ours, the navigational stars have Arabic names the heavens belong to us. We name those stars are our community. The numerals that people add subtract and multiply by, are ours. They're
not Indian they are Arabic they'd like to put Hindi Hindi Arabic but the ones we use are not the Indian ones they're the North African ones that were
developed by Muslims to show the angles. So we have had a huge impact on Western civilization and this civilization the beauty of being indebted is that you actually good people feel a sense of you know that they should be grateful and then bad people it just makes them angry.
Thank You chef Hamza to follow up on that I would like to ask both of you what specifically do you consider success when engaging with government officials and just government in general and specifically what change in policy have you achieved?
I just any concrete results deliverables
that you're either you individually as
someone that worked in State Department
or you as the president of impact
through your leadership through
mobilizing resources and meetings and
directly meeting with them what have you
influenced and lobbied and successfully
gained for us you know there are two
things I can name both under the Bush
administration we worked with the
Department Homeland Security civil
rights civil liberties Division number
one we actually got more Muslims to work
in the government not just through civil
rights and civil liberties but through
other channels and now there are a
number of Muslims working on cases of
redress involving our community and one
of the most important programs that we
developed with them is called trip which
is a travel redress program where
people's names were Mis associated with
names on an oaf a class the Office of
Foreign Assets and control these are
people that the government is
investigating and so we developed a
means for people to clear their names
that they will not be harassed at
airports number two we did we lobbied
the Bush administration to drop the term
Islamic when it refers to terrorism
because we argued that you cannot give
al-qaeda religious legitimacy they
accepted our that argument and it was
the Bush administration that developed a
policy paper through Secretary of
Homeland Security Michael Chertoff and
the paper is still available where he
basically his name is on the decision
that the US government will not
associate Islam with terrorism and to me
these are minor steps in terms of
government engagement but major steps in
changing the way people see our
community on the one hand we're trying
to provide services leverage our
connections and government to provide
services and on the other hand we're
mitigating the harm which to me is
exactly what the Quran is saying Moroni band motto if you with unhone and one God we enjoying for what is a social benefit for the doing of good and we prevent what is of social harm and what is what is evil so that that to me are two examples of the work that I'm very proud of with the Muslim Public Affairs
Council okay
Shaykh Hamza: Can I just add something about Jared off who who was the head of Homeland Security I actually gave a talk with he and his wife were present with their son and I had read his father's PhD dissertation at Columbia which is on the influence of gazali on Jewish philosophers he was actually an expert on Islam so I have that was that my talk that night I said "I know that that the head of Homeland Security knows that Islam is not an evil religion because his father got his PhD at Columbia showing the positive impact
that Islam had on Jewish philosophers." He was floored. His wife came up to it with tears in her eyes she said I can't believe you mentioned that my son doesn't know who his grandfather was. So I just want to thank you for that.
I've seen hearts change in addition to everything that was said about people's hearts changings that ambassador Brownback taking sheikh abdullah bin Bayyah more seriously having the Honorable shirt off to think about Islam more seriously these are offers great examples and in the examples that sometimes go unheard of right people don't know about these things. I think one of the things we have and as a community broadly speaking is that we don't advertise our good work and there's a great deal of not an unknown
good things that happen all the time
whether the Muslims who are civil
servants or their foreign service
officers or at the local City Council or
a state legislature we just don't really
know the the hard work that's being done
so there are thousands of good success
stories it's just people seem to
gravitate towards things that are not so
happy and negative and sometimes so that
we're always pose posturing in a sort of
defensive defensively on these issues
one time in government and I think
specifically I think one of the greatest
things was to really think of wonderful
shakes and shrieks just like shake up a
little bit by a for government
before US diplomats take them seriously
do not see them as theologians who are
living in their own world who are just
you know talking to amongst other
theologians but the work I think we did
in those three years for Kerry's office
was to train diplomats how to think
about female Shekhar's how to think
about many men who are want to become
Imams universities and so forth there's
a whole religious dynamics in living and
appreciating life and working with other
folks that that is not understood in
sort of a very deeply secular
corporation and so breaking that not
meant numerous numerous training at with
called a Foreign Service Institute as
well as in foreign and training at
embassies so I think just sensitizing
them and showing resources and
understanding just as Salaam said
there's a great deal of thinking that
when we think of extremists or violent
extremists there should be a number of
Muslim names and I think our work was to
show that you know religion is not
really associated with violent extremism
we had another three ten ten pages of
luck all these other movements in the
last 50 years that had nothing to do
with religion and so there has to be
some sort of appreciation of why people
turn to extremism for a political cause
instead of just think you know that's
the religious reason I think the other
other thing that's really important is
having diplomats who can name who who
could never name a single shake but they
would go to the peace forum and I would
love you the annual peace forum and now
have in their Blackberry or smartphone a
hundred one hundred names they have a
hundred names from 50 different
countries who they can say in Sierra
Leone in in Ghana or it's
who can return to when we have a
question there's something happening
that's going to come as a tidal wave as
a threat which Imams can return to who
can reconvene and I think that was a
really good and contribution and there
was no less of a contribution but by
Imams and shakes and Chinooks karapa
listening and being engaged if we didn't
have them to be engaged we couldn't
provide these relationships so I think
that was a success story so I would like
to share the role of engagement with
government I'm a proud public servant so
I won the political Abba alum lotto when
I was got when I got hired by Mayor
Willie Brown and that was when my
political activism started and that's
when public service became my way of
life and it's not a job for 16 years I
worked directly for the mayor's office
and different departments and most
recently I'm not no longer an employee
but now I serve as a commissioner and
some of the things that we've done in
San Francisco and behind the scenes have
been amazing we had the first Ramadan
iftar at City Hall this year attended by
over 500 people that would have happened
without engagement we had just a meeting
the other day with Department of
Homeland Security because we had issues
of people getting in so now they promise
that they will get to us if there's any
issues with visas and they also asked us
for cultural sensitivity training not
just in their secondary training for
their cadets but for their primary
training that's huge
we don't we don't have to advertise it
but it's happening behind the scenes
they we've been asking them also to hire
more Muslims that look like us that
talked like us that share our values the
other just on a local level there's
nothing that happens in the mayor's
office that we don't have information
about when there's a mosque we're under
attack every mosque is now guarded every
mosque with the police chief himself
contacts every message in San Francisco
and make sure they're fully equipped and
has security 24/7 until they're feeling
more safe and at home and more recently
we've been dealing with the school
system we're trying to get more cultural
sensitivity we started we are from the
president's office in the Barack Obama
will always be my president
it was know your neighbor and now we
started to know your class
because of the bullying in schools so we
have ing we have era they're doing such
amazing work separately but they're
still doing amazing work to reach out to
the Muslim community and when New
Zealand attacks happened and the
terrorist attacks took the lives of
those precious Muslims across the world
what we did was make sure that every
elected official in California and I
specifically sent an email to every
single one of them and texted every
single one of them and made sure they
used the word brother and sister and
their tweets and hamdulillah they did
that's what access provides so that they
know that whether you're brown or black
Muslim or any Muslim that they will
treat you the same as anybody else so
for me Public Engagement has been
amazing why because I have access to
resources and so inshallah as we're
talking about this debate I think we
should be very mindful of the
effectiveness and the sacrifices of so
many Muslims especially Muni drivers we
have Muni drivers that drive your kids
to school that also need to be respected
and thought about whether they're in the
mayor's office or driving buses or in a
department of health so please be
mindful that government is not all bad I
would back to say 90% are people of
honor and integrity and doing the work
and sharing our values as well so come
are just going back to its it's similar
now that you know with the tank think
tank and you worked amazing the State
Department
I just want specifically hone down on
lobbying in federal government on
Capitol and White House what are some of
the do's and don'ts what are the best
practices and who's been the most
effective at lobbying because I think
that's part of the equation as well
we're talking my engagement we're
different levels engagement right we're
more more civic engagement public
service more scholarly PR but the
hardcore lobbying like what are some of
the best practices I may not be the best
person to answer that question because
I'm not in the lobby business right
oh how did I see government people oh
yes I think I think I'll be extra fair
here in the State Department when you
come to the State Department you are
invited and you asked to provide your
driver's license and your name in your
date of birth and they register you
right so they know who's coming what's
your personal background just like any
other government building and then why
you're there and who you meeting so this
is recorded and it came up in with some
conversation someone who works in that
office and they knew I was in the the
secretary's office on Aslam overseas but
they wanted to know more about a
particular group and I said sure what's
up and they asked me for coffee I said
you know this group comes here about 400
times a year yeah 400 times years
recorded in 2017 I said oh okay and they
showed you the names it's about ten
names they're coming over and over again
like you said maybe twice a day three
times a day
and and they're just it's a it's an
International Development Foundation
it's and they come and they speak to
every single Bureau every single
political appointee they want to share
their work on a show their networks they
want to show what the type of work
they're doing they want to show what
they have what what sort of access they
have to overseas companies up and
overseas governments I'll just say it
it's the other Khan Foundation and that
came up and I just wanna be transparent
and I was like wow it's fantastic 400
times a year about and
to a point where now you say this is
that's free these are free conversations
you come you make an appointment you
share your ideas but to a point where
the government knows the activities in
Kenya in all their schools from Ghana to
Somalia to Yemen and all these schools
up in Pakistan and Kashmir that
everything they know that teachers names
they know the principles they know that
they know what's happening what's
important about all these different
departments knowing the Agathon
because when there was a need in Yemen
to remove some people out of Yemen to
rescue a hostage situation
this community played a role because
they had people on the ground they're
already there they had access that
Catholic Relief Services could not have
and so this foundation is not just seen
as you're providing this information but
they're critically important to save
other Americans lives and also do other
things I mean that's not their job
that's not a job to help Americans
policy the job is to be inform the
Americans of the activities and also
show that the activities are in a way
promoting American values because an
American base 501c3 so that's one
example that that's what I meant by
consistency and continuity maintaining
relationships 400 may sound a lot I bet
there are other groups that I have no
idea who's there a lot more and that's
just the State Department I'm not sure
where they go into USAID or as a White
House but continuity and consistency
shapes a person's mind and shapes a
group's mind and also has a very
favorable attitude of your ability to be
successful overseas so to fall thank you
for saying that as many of you know you
probably get hundreds of emails like the
rest of us talking about Capitol day
whether buying
MPAC Muslim advocates care engage those
are really important so please make sure
you donate to those causes because dads
will help contribute to lobbying efforts
to help getting the message out about
the Muslim community so hopefully you
guys can do that because I think as he's
mentioning they really work on their
they don't show up 400 times a year but
they definitely show up a few times and
they really do need your support so
please make sure you donate to the
capital holiday share Hamza back to you
you're famous or maybe infamous for
visiting the White House right after
9/11 and meeting with george w bush
there's been a lot of misinformation
until this day which i can't understand
about your role in that meeting before
and after can you please tell us what
you said to President Bush and what
really happened so that for history's
sake that we kind of couldn't put this
to the rest
Shaykh Hamza: I mean first of all I met one time. I went in and actually my recommendation to them and Sohail Khan knows this story, because he was there,
Mehboob Khan's son. I was invited in with four other religious leaders it was a cardinal who ended up getting scandalized in Massachusetts over the
covering up the pedophilia problems. And then there was a Jewish rabbi, Franklin Graham and myself representing the Muslims.
This was before we knew anything. I mean this is September 20th and we didn't know what was going on. There was no war with Iraq. Nothing.
And one of the things that they mentioned was that the I have a letter which I've never published and and I probably should. Because I gave him a letter that that gave him my recommendations. One of them was don't go to war in any Muslim country because this is a criminal act and it should be seen as a criminal act and and no country has done this. And so it would be a great disservice to the people that are gonna be harmed by any war.
The letters there. They had said that they were calling this operation to find out who did it...there's no war yet. The war was declared later and they called the Operation Infinite Justice. We were in the elevator going up, In the White House and I said to these religious leaders that's blasphemous and they all agreed like they nodded their heads and I said shouldn't we say something? Like that's like saying America's God! They said yeah we should say something. So we appointed the cardinal and so when we were leaving he didn't say anything. So I said, "Excuse me, you know that this operation to find out who did this", ...Right there's no war..."It's called Infinite Justice and only God's Justice is infinite." So I consider this <ARABIC> (Speaking truth to a Ruler)
I said something that I hope on the Day of Judgment benefits me.
I said it's blasphemous to say that an offensive to Muslims. And he said "really" I said "Yeah".
He said "Get the, Call the Pentagon, get them to change it, we don't have any theologians in the Pentagon."
that's what he said
So, they changed the name. That's my little footnote in history. You know, this guy that got the name changed, but it became a war. That wasn't what I was saying. There's this idea somehow I was more concerned about the name than the actual war. There was no war.
For me, my family knows this, my concern at the time, was I was very worried that the Muslim places of worship would be aggressed upon. By my estimation for the the people of his country went up enormously after 9/11 because most of our mosques had flowers we had people calling.
I was floored by that mahogany who's not here she knows we met
and I said listen I've been watching
these now they're called Islamophobes I just said anti-muslim people for since the mid 90s and these guys are going to use this as an opportunity come to completely create a smear campaign against our community and make us look like a Fifth Column in the United States.
That was my concern was how Muslims are gonna be viewed about how Muslim women wearing the hijab are gonna get accosted. Our children being bullied, those were
all my concerns at the time. My concern was this community. We're here, we live here we've been here for probably for at least 400 years, Muslims, on these
shores.
We're here and as far as I know nobody's going anywhere at least the vast majority fine we have to live here and if people don't know who we are if we allow other people to frame who we are then we've been framed right and Islam are Sharia says you have to obey the laws of the land. The verses that were read earlier those opening verses are to the rulers. Give people their trusts you know because you have a sacred trust as a government give people their Amanat and if you judge, judge justly. And this is good advice. But then the advice is to the people the citizens obey God obey the messenger in other
words be virtuous and upright because we don't have we can't we don't have any
penal code none of those things of
Shetty yet that have to do with laws of
criminal justice and thing that has
nothing to do with Muslims other than
people in authority in Muslim lands and that's their prerogative but then it says and obey those in authority from you in other words Muslims by consensus
of our scholars are obliged to bit obey
the laws of the land and if their
secular laws they have to obey them the
only thing that we don't obey is if
somebody makes a law that everybody has to drink a toast on Christmas, with wine. We're not going to do that. now that's absurd but those are the only things
that we obey if it actually goes against something that we can't do. But everything else we have to do by law, that's the Sharia in the country of the
United States the Sharia is the Constitution of the United States. And and that that is what are all of our scholars have said. Abizaid one of the earliest scholars in his in his book <> he says he was asked if somebody is in the land of the Romans meaning the Europeans if they're there and and they went in
with a like a visa at the time you know it was called <ARABIC> they called him somebody who's given you no permission
to come in there so they're they're
secured their person and then they
aggressive on them do they have to obey
the laws here's what he said if the
aggression is from rabble amongst them
or criminals they have to obey the laws
but if the aggression is from the
government then they're no longer right
bound by the law because they broke that
that government broke the trust of you being in there securely so that that is an example of how sophisticated early on our scholars were so you know my
My goal in there was to I actually took the Essential Quran and I put all the verses and put stickies on it and said I know you don't have time to read
the Quran but just read these verses I gave him a thing from Mohammed Zakaria about the Character of the Prophet that he "Never repaid a wrong with another
wrong"
And I said this has nothing to do with Islam. So I was in there to explain what Islam is. And to be fair to him like he I think...he did horrible things
afterwards with the war in Iraq and listening to the neo-cons and what happened it's terrible. And a lot of people died because of misadventures. But
initially we have to be grateful that he went to a mosque almost immediately. He did that news conference he talked about how Muslims are good citizens of this
country. So he actually did the right things initially and I think it benefited us as a community. Unfortunately today we have a whole other problem with with just the rhetoric has been so aggressive.
It's really important to remember that Trump is not the government he is the head of the administration. And our system differentiates between the government and the administration. This man was a political appointee meaning that the administration appointed him for a temporary position the civil servants are there all the time. They're a different kettle of fish and so if we start if we don't understand even the Commission by people like I joined the Trump,give me a break.
You know seriously, this commission is an independent body of academics. It is literally illegal by federal law for the State Department to put any pressure on this committee to come up with with what they want. One of the things that we can learn from our Jewish brethren here is that the Jews committee one they they don't attack each other in public. They're very even though they really own Jimmy and Oklahoma Shep though the Quran says "You think they're all United but they're very divided as well". But they have an outward display in the head of the Religious Desk at one of the major networks, in the United States, told me of all the religious communities he covers the most vicious with one another as the Muslim community.
And that broke my heart when I heard that. when when the Jewish community.
I was with Muhammad Asanusi see Dr. Sanusi. We went I've been going for the last four years to the to the Baptist's they have a conference on religious freedom and they invited me so I went because Shaaykh Abdullah Bin Bayyah always says, "An empty chair is not a strategy". If they invite you, go.
That's the prophetic practice. I went and there was a man there. Every time I've gone to the Right there's always Jewish rabbis. Whenever I go to the left, there's always Jewish rabbis. They are represented in both sides of the aisle.
There was a man that had written a book about Sharia. He spent about ten minutes saying how evil the Shariah was. Hhe didn't know I was Muslim in...I am in a suit and tie just sitting there listening to him I didn't say anything. When he finished I said you know can I talk I said first of all. I will agree with everything you said if you will agree that the Klu Klux Klan represents Christianity.
Because everything you've described has nothing to do with my religion and I've spent 40 years studying this religion and then they let me go on for about 20 minutes explaining the Maqasid I explained the six Maqasid of Sharia that the higher aims of the Sharia.
When I finished, when I went out, people came up to me and said you know we've never heard that before that was very illuminating. you know we've only heard that other version we went from that meeting with Mohamed Sanu seat to shoulder to shoulder which you know which is the left there were the Jewish rabbis.
They were at both groups but the Muslims. We're the only Muslims at the right. They have books on the table like you know, the evil of Islam and things like that I mean literally. you know so if we're not in there to just create a kind of even just to a
little bit of a pattern disruption to make them think because, Thomas Cleary once told me the brilliant scholar Tom's dr. Cleary told me once most Americans cannot think about thinking about Islam.
We're all activists I know some people think it's like a bad word but we're all activists.
scholarly activists public relations a public service but there are other activists that are also engage in an edition engage they also participate in protests and boycotts and sometimes they don't think those makes well and they take a position do you see that their type of activism as well finding a venue to work
for change as well I'm gonna ask all
three of us start with you is it also an
effective Avenue for change yes of
course I mean I was there when the
announcement of the Muslim ban through
an executive order was made
and we went to the airport and that was
a massive protest we basically shut down
half the airport there were about 10,000
people there and I have to tell you I
couldn't find 10 Muslims so while
there's a lot of talk on so especially
on social media and social media is very
toxic number one there's so much rumour
milling and we lose the Islamic
character the Quran tells us verify
something when you hear something bad
verify otherwise you will feel remorse
for letting it spread and we have lost
that character of stopping rumor Millie
but in the in that protest I was there
and I do believe that you do need both
you need the people on the outside
raising the issues pressuring the
government from from that standpoint and
you need the person at the table so
there are two different modes but they
have to work hand in hand the bottom
line the Quran tells us you must band
together if you are fractured then
corruption will continue to spread on on
earth why are Muslims still suffering
from occupation genocide ethnic
cleansing tyranny because we have not
banded together and in America we have
that opportunity the left and the right
and those who protest and those who
believe in resistance and those who
believe in engagement and see having a
seat at the table we have to become as
if you know we are one body but we're
not we're very far away from it at least
let us agree on the ideal and and
discuss it and then move towards it I
just have one last story that that you
know really impacted me in terms of the
work since chef Hamza was talking about
Christian groups and religious groups I
was at an evangelical church and there
was a person that wanted to go speak at
the event occult Church she's not very
religious her name is Diane she was a
Peace Corps volunteer back in the 70s
and she was in Muslim countries and she
said Muslims treat
her so well there now she lives in
America and she sees what's happening to
Muslims and she is disgusted by it and
she wants to tell all Americans that
because Muslims treated her so well we
should treat Muslims well here and she
told her story and then I they invited
me to speak and to we talked about the
Mikasa and we talked about Islam you
know the myth and the realities and all
the misconceptions at the end of that a
man came up to both of us he said I am a
political operative for Republicans and
I use anti-muslim tropes to get them
elected in office I'm here to ask for
your forgiveness because now I realize
what I've done is wrong that micro
change to me is validation is redeeming
for our work is that changing hearts and
minds one person at a time whether we're
dealing with scholars like she comes it
does or people in government like Lamar
does and think tanks or people in
interfaith councils and government
services like Allah does at the end of
the day it's about working with people
however you you you you know whichever
way God has decided to give you that
opportunity to engage and is this change
at fidelity he assented Avantika obey no
I da watan and no one even I mean repel
evil with goods that the one with whom
there is enmity becomes as if he is your
closest and warmest friend and who is
the best example of that is the Prophet
Muhammad SAW Allah said that I think
that's what we have to follow in this
country today it's hard but we're
getting our chart and didn't have two
questions no I just don't have more to
add just but the very thought is
protests on the streets raising your
voices being public with the protests
and and being part of all different
types of coalition's I think it's very
important to join those coalition's and
show your public presence but it is
still just
the beginning because the protest has a
beginning point and an end point and
then everyone goes on on the way grabs a
cappuccino so one has to figure out you
know what does this all mean others or
was it a feel-good emotional moment it
was it something more does it lead to
something so all I would ask is those
activist stores who are trained to think
that just need to be in the public
sphere by protesting think about the
wheel of influence and think about the
impact of touching that wheel how are
you going to move outside the street
into the legislative halls into the
State Department in different areas in
academia and so forth because after the
the protest what's beyond that what more
can you do
and I think that's what I would ask us
to reflect on and more two things one
who did the Prosise I'm sent into Mecca
do you remember at the at when they went
for Umbra the hudaibiya he sent earth
man even I've found and the reason he
did was he was the only one that had
maintained good connections with the
people of Mecca everybody else had cut
them off earth man kept he kept
relations and this is called Shara to
Moorea Moorea said I always keep a hair
between me and others if they pull I
release if they release I pull but I
don't let that hair get broken and so
it's very important to recognize that we
we have to have you know that we have to
have those relations because because
they're very important the other thing
is that the prophet sallallaahu said I'm
was somebody who he always wanted people
to be guided and that was his
overarching concern about people he did
not
it's amazing that his I think one of his
greatest gifts was his ability to make
his enemies his friends and if you
alienate people to such a degree that
you demonize them you do the very thing
you're asking them not to do to you and
and I've seen hearts change and my you
know people think I have Chris Hedges I
really I keep in contact with him I love
Chris Hedges but I also have a good
relationship with Robbie George they're
on opposite spectrums but I I don't know
if it's because I'm ambidextrous I just
the left and the right to me both have
valid points and I think when you
demonize one side and not recognize that
a lot of these people are decent people
and finally the Prophet SAW I said and
he said said takuna Amara telefono atone
Kieran there are gonna be rulers people
put over you they that you will see good
from them and you will see bad he said
man arafa beriah
whoever acknowledges the good is free of
the sin of whatever bad they do woman
Ankara
Salima and whoever rejects in his heart
according to the commentaries because
he's not able to change it in his heart
is free of their evil Salima and then
and th