was presenting it what one one I just I
would say that you know the the prices
and you point this out in your book
about legitimization and the crises of
legitimization legitimacy is a crises
that I don't think is just in the Muslim
world that's happening here as well it's
happening the whole nation state the
concept of the nation-state is becoming
harder and harder to justify in in in
the type of worldwide
world that we're living in the the
corporate hegemonies that are taking
place now and financing and its central
wall which is actually superseding
politics really in determining what's
going on but the there is a crises of
religious authority and the way the
Catholics dealt with that always was
with the Magisterium Jewish and Islamic
tradition had a very nuanced way of
dealing with that through a type of
process of you know the rabbi is in the
odama would would have these long
discussions about things and kind of
finally come to some either a consensus
or an acceptable disagreement like your
opinions valid my opinions valid God
knows best who's right and heretical
views or views that were to deviant to
be accepted within that were identified
and people were told to stay away and
that that's how orthodoxy was identified
that's no longer the case we have google
Islam today we have mass numbers of
Muslims reading primary text which was
never the case you before you could read
a primary text you had to go through a
training that enables you to access
those texts within the hermeneutic
framework of that tradition now we have
sex emerging in the Muslim world that
are really new and one of them is the
political Islamic sect that's a very new
narrative this idea of the Islamic state
that is a completely Western idea that
Muslims have internalized and not even
realized where it came from they don't
see that it actually is a Western idea
yeah and it's far closer to Zionism than
it is to Islam the idea of creating an
ideological state in which the the
believers can live a free of the
impurity in purities of the disbelievers
so I think the what the West has you
know America to a certain degree in
certainly Europe has has been grappling
with in dealing with is how we create a
pluralistic society where religious
space is protected and is not a threat
to the the civil society itself so
religious violence is is it was a crises
that emerged largely in the 17th century
in Europe which led to these solutions
of how we deal with religion because
people are religious by nature but how
do we deal with that so that religion is
protected in spaces protected and yet
it's no longer a violent threat to the
well-being of society well
the Muslim world is grappling with that
now because religious violence is is
something that's very real now in the
Muslim world and it's it's been alien
really in in the history of something
you said it's far less prevalent in the
Muslim world but I think there we have
to learn how we can live with a
religious space in which people are free
to practice their religion as they
understand it well certainly our
Constitution guarantees that freedom of
practice it doesn't say be that
separating church and state at all the
First Amendment it actually says
Congress shall not you know interfere
with and I'm not quoting it exactly
the free exercise of religion when did
this this split start you had mentioned
that a moment ago because I think it
maybe have a time parallel with this
phenomenon it that dimension I think
this is where Edward say he was was
right in associating imperialism I mean
there's always been an anti-muslim
discourse and also parallel to what in
American academia no I mean in Western
thought from the time of the beginning
of the sloth onward there has been an
anti-muslim discourse and they've also
been individuals sometimes influential
ones who have been much more
understanding but when the discourse
because it was a different religion
because it was a power comedy there was
a power computation
it was both but in this sense more
because apart for example Charlemagne
had relations diplomatic contact with
lead with the Calif and then his his
great-great-granddaughter actually sent
an embassy to the Calif and said look
you rural in the east I'm the ruler of
Rome she was the queen of law Ferengi at
that point said why don't we just have a
permanent peace as long as you want and
you know the idea of there being
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peaceful relations was not a mathema it
was a matter of whatever the power
consolation was the time but once you
get to the second half of the 18th
century and you get imperialism shifting
into high gear with the idea of kind of
having state imperialism establishing
colonies in areas with large mussel
populations then you begin to get more
of the systematic demeaning of the
Muslim tradition but but actually what
happens was saying I was in Malaysia a
couple of years ago and the sisters in
Islam which is a feminist group there
are they had a meeting with a couple of
visitors the Grand Mufti of Bosnia and
an amount here from New York City and
they gave wonderful talks and the women
were really appreciated it and so forth
and then after saying how much they
enjoyed their discourse they started
asking the tough questions you know what
can you tell us about child custody what
can you tell us about this how can you
be somewhere problems and then these
guys didn't really say anything and it
became clear in conversation and
thinking about afterwards that the
problem was and the Grand Mufti a
bosnian said you know we have a labor
problem in Bosnia and Sheikh Qaradawi
delivered a fewa and I wrote him a
letter saying in Bosnia
I'm the mufti and you don't write a
letter about Bosnia and here they were
two commands of great of great
reputation but from other places were
they going to say something - - to women
in Malaysia and undercut the local maps
in Malaysia well now this is the problem
is this the nation-state beginning the
system that originated at the end of the
Wars of Religion in Europe is this the
nation-state beginning to impose itself
as a model on Islam will you have an
Islam that differs from place to place
or not
as long tradition one of the obligations
it's a condition for the mufti to be a
resident of the place he gives fatwa
moved he's not actually supposed to give
a fatwa to a place he doesn't live in
because he doesn't know the
circumstances take your first magazine
multi he delivered dealing with but this
is opposed to you know people don't know
what the supposed to Tsar we there's a
beginning of learning and internet is
health and there are a lot of people
studying now there are even Muslims who
are teaching Islamic studies and well
we're like it's the thing is fragmenting
and it's it's a real crises and I don't
think people realize the severity of it
it's fragmenting I mean III was just in
the Middle East and you know people
they're having rave parties in in in
Saudi Arabia you know this is this is
globalization you know I mean it's it's
it's a very different world and and the
older people just they don't know what
to do they they're just you know there's
not even a word in Arabic for rave
parties yeah so but one of the appalling
possibilities there are people now who
work in development and divide and other
place in the Gulf who say that over the
next 15 years they expect a transfer of
capital two trillion dollars into the
Gulf Cooperation Council countries that
is to say the Gulf countries excluding
Iran and Iraq practically speaking two
trillion dollars you know at a certain
point does the Gulf become a center of
gravity around which the Muslim world
begins to rotate and if so what kind of
a society is being created there
it's a good point and it is happening
it's becoming a hub there's an
incredible amount of activity there this
that's and it's very exciting people on
every year there and people things are
happening and an incredibly fast pace
but the disruptions to the society
itself are immense and they damn yet
dealt with that and that's something
Suzanne George talks a lot about how you
no fool in his culture are soon parted
that it's it's very it's very difficult
for people outside of Western society to
realize how much of Western
dysfunctionality is embedded in Western
technology in Western ways of doing
things that it's a complete package
there's there's an idea in the West and
I think the Iranians really were were at
the vanguard of this idea that somehow
we could modernize without westernizing
that was that was a very common motif
and a lot of the writings of the 60s and
70s not being aware at how much of
what's going on here is actually part
and parcel of the you know the breakdown
of the family the the dysfunctionality
with drug use all of these things
because as life gets faster and faster
people get more and more disoriented and
and start having a lot of real problems
and that's already and it's happening
there and and they don't have the social
sciences that we have that wasn't things
I was trying to convince the ministries
start reducing social sciences because
you have to understand your your society
like what's happening interview these
young people find out what's going on
their minds the only people that are
doing that are the marketing companies
and Procter & Gamble did Procter &
Gamble did a study called the emerging
air of the consumer and identified four
types of Arabs in the Gulf region the
wee-wees the wheedies the me wheeze and
knees and they said that actually I
think the guy was from California but
they said you know the wee-wees were the
older ones who were more communitarian
the family and the culture were more
important than the individual and then
the the we Me's were the the culture was
still important the family but the
individual was starting to emerge the
the me wheeze the the individuality was
more important than the culture but the
culture was so important but the the
dominant group that they said that was
emerging was the meanies and they could
they could care less about the culture
they just wanted Prada and Gucci and you
know man on TV this is the area that now
have something like 15 American
universities who have decided is that
like school for satellite schools of one
sort or another and they're being bribed
into doing it and why do I think was
offerin dollars simply to to enter the
conversation
so you you set up a branch or university
so do you address the the Mimi problem
by talking about your culture or by
bringing in Western educational
institutions to bring in a Western
culture what really is I most maps the
Persian Gulf but if you're in one of the
Arab countries the Persian part is left
off of the geography have you noticed
that sometimes a coffee Arabian golden
oh yes so can we predict today what and
all the Arabs call it the Persian Gulf
long before it was the Arabian Gulf well
you know the National Geographic put put
out one map it said Arabian Gulf and
version Dolf both and the country of
Iran boycotted it and collected
petitions with tens of thousands of
signatures protesting National
Geographic that canceled all National
Geographic
mailings to Iran and I was the
intermediary I'm trying to solve this
but the way you solve it is that you
call it Persian Gulf and then you have a
footnote and then a tiny tiny script
elsewhere the map to say also some Arab
countries call it the Arabian I remember
the Iranian bathroom that typeset could
be put the foot over to different page
and it's funny how maps become reality
because if I in the 1911 encyclopædia
Britannica all the maps that have
Palestine as the name and you know you
go before Israel in 47 all the maps have
Palestine but now Americans don't ever
know that there was a country called
Palestine that that was actually a place
people here don't know that that most
Americans actually think Israel was
always Israel I have a friend who said
you know I was born in Israel in 1936
and I said you need to take that off
your resume
but I have a a coin from Palestine and
it says Palestine is expect commercial
but in English very beautiful
there've didn't call it Palestine they
call it Shem was never called titles
thing
the Arabs didn't call Philistines so
even Palestine is is a colonial name it
was given by a fine British that had
they actually wanted the biblical name
that's what it was called in biblical
times and the Philistines are actually
almost called enrollment imperialist and
the Philistines are the bad guys in in
the Bible these are dangerous books the
new Old Testament New Testament the
gospel there and end the farm
they're dangerous books they really are
I don't think people realize how
dangerous they are but I think it made a
very good point when you said that now
people are reading the primary text
without any any introduction you said
Muslims are reading it but non Muslims
are reading it too and raining absurd
commentaries in which they say well I
read it in the Quran and my
interpretation of what it means in
governs which is absurd you say well are
you familiar with the fourteen
succeeding centuries of commentary no I
read the Quran it's as if we've really
made sort of a time warp into the
earliest elements of Protestantism where
you try and erase the entire history of
the Catholic thinking about about Jesus
and Christianity and go back to some
kind of primitive intuitive reading of
lead of the gospel except that at least
the early Protestants usually
well that I'm not the you articulated
perfectly that it to me that is the
crises that without a hermeneutic to
understand these books that's rooted in
compassion and in respect for the other
they become manichaean documents that
can really set people apart and I think
Muslims are susceptible to Manichean
readings of the Quran if they're not
careful just as the Christians and the
Jews are very susceptible to Manichean
readings of their book and that's why
the Manichean heresy is a heresy and
it's a heresy in the Islamic tradition
as well khadiyah
is it's the same idea we have we have
the same heresy so all three religions
share that view that it is a very
dangerous way to read these books but
they can be easily read like that and I
would argue that it's easier to read the
Quran like that than it is for a quick
definition for audience because
certainly I know manikyam manikyam is
there was a prophet named mani who
preached that there was a single source
of good and parallel to it a single
source of evil and they would be
eternally at war with one another and
that you should strive in your personal
life to perfect your your life so you
would become pure good and then you
recognize that there is also pure evil
and then it becomes you as
metaphorically for anything that pits
lighten dark good and bad good you evil
cannot be erased it can be fought but it
cannot be erased I mean just that the
Zoroastrian tradition the Maji and
tradition
is it's pretty much the same idea that
you know offering - is you know you have
the Mazda hora Mazda and I'll remind the
God and the God of evil and you know
they're if they're locking heads worse
in the in the in in the piranha canned
the the Abrahamic narrative is that God
created evil with the good so it's it's
seen as be coming from the same source
which gives you a metaphysical framework
to understand evil that it has a purpose
that it's it's uh it's it's something
that's inside everyone it's not
something that is outside of yourself
and and therefore it becomes if you
understand that in any true sense of
that word it becomes very difficult to
objectify evil in the world unless you
take that manikyam approach to religion
which religions are very susceptible to
that at a simplistic reading of religion
though the Quran divides the world if
you read it in that gross literal
reading in the demote me known and the
kaffir own but the deeper you go into
the Quran the Quran saying you'll
Tunisian Haman and mate you know he
takes the living out of the Dead and the
dead out of the living that night is
turning into day and day is turning in
tonight and be careful these things
aren't as fixed as they appear there but
you take you take the simple-minded
reading and you get these distortions
that are very violent in some cases but
then you can do that exactly the same
thing of the Bible so that you can say
well nobody would take seriously a verse
of the Bible that says thou shalt not
suffer a witch to live and yet you had
tens of thousands of women burned at the
stake by Christians are drowned because
they weren't because lepers because
there is a belief that witches were
irredeemably evil they were the agents
of Satan and saw so you know you you
always have to to stand up against the
simple-minded black and white
interpretation of things that are
properly in
preface tradition more subtly though
it's increasingly hard to do in our
society where there's more in black and
white available to us both on in
newspapers on the internet and in a sort
of intellectual black-and-white on in
the television news
how do what do we do you know when
you're demonizing the other and dr.
Bhatt was talking earlier about the slew
of zombie films that emerged after 9/11
and you know the the the in those films
invariably the zombies are slaughtered
with impunity by the good guys and that
you know that he was suggesting that
that unfortunately there are people in
this country that look at Muslims as
zombies mindless and malevolent and so
it becomes very easy to I mean I'm
always amazed that they talk about 4,000
American soldiers have died in Iraq and
never when that is mentioned is the the
I mean let's just have the Lancet report
which is a pretty reputable I'm not
pretty it is a reputed reputable journal
in England using the same criteria that
they use for Rwanda and they came up
with almost a million civilians have
been killed in Iraq but let's just have
that you know to be on the conservative
side and say it was 500,000 that's a lot
of human beings that are just gone from
the earth because of a misadventure that
was entirely predicated on lies and
deception and and people suffer from it
but when you demonize people it becomes
easy for people to read the newspaper
about that and eat their breakfast well
one of the things that that we often
talk about in the war on terror and so
it's called asymmetrical warfare in
which we have a lot of weapons and they
don't but they're winning the waves
constructors but the fact the matter is
that asymmetrical warfare would also
apply to something like the Iraq war
where Americans were never threatened by
Iraq still to this day Iraq has never
heard anybody who was not in the
American armed services or working for
an employer employed by the US
government
whereas bombings and attacks of all
sorts of affected the Iraqi civilians we
are carrying out what labeled a poem
called total war against Iraq but we're
not having total war as something that
we are suffering on our side that that
disequilibrium and this is the reason we
don't have an anti-war movement in this
country is that we don't sense that
we're at war but the Iraqis know damn
well we're a part and that that
asymmetry is is very disturbing to the
soul of the country I think but there
was that thing asymmetry with regard to
Vietnam we were not under attack her
when we threatened by Vietnam we heard
we've heard a lot about the 50,000
Americans who died and not about the
millions of Vietnamese there with the
content you have a country Walter
Cronkite you know nightly news showing
some pretty horrific images coming in -
that was the first time people had more
images you can see stuff on YouTube but
there's been almost total I mean wearing
almost like a Pravda type of situation
here I think in some ways our news is
becoming more and more like Russian news
and we're even seeing that the
scientists have been censored about
global warming nasa scientists and other
scientists were actually censored and
told what they could you couldn't say I
mean thank God some of that stuff is
coming out but there has been a lot of
censorship there have been no pictures
and I'll allow take those pictures of
the funeral the people come
Oh in in the in the body bags and things
like that
so that that's part of problem and then
another aspect of it is and let's face
it it's it's it's it's the it's the the
poor people that are dying over there
are large then if you look at even a lot
of the names it's Sanchez and it's you
know it's you know African American
Mexican American and then for white
communities that are suffering if you go
into the heartland of America in these
small towns those are the people that
are losing the people and and they don't
have that the type of cloud that you
know but there's an irony is that the
American soldier is recently well paid
now he comes from a or she comes from a
lower social stratum usually but it's a
good job until your killer but but one
of the things that we don't seem to
realize is that you know if we ever got
into a big war and we had a draft
together we can't afford to pay a good
salary because well let me say on behalf
of the sons and daughters of Adam here
today thank you dr. bullet anything come
to you so
you
you