welcome to hard talk I'm Sara Montague a
few weeks ago the FBI turned up at the
home of my guest today he's a
high-profile Islamic leader his wife
told them he was with the president they
thought she was joking
she wasn't he was indeed at the White
House advising George W Bush on Islam
Hamza Yusuf Hansen welcome to hard talk
thank you what were you advising the
u.s. president I was invited to the
White House through some Muslim contact
people in Washington and I'm I did meet
with the president there was about
thirty some-odd religious leaders
religious scholars that were brought to
the White House among them a small group
was met with the president in the Oval
Office and we were allowed to voice our
opinions he expressed some of his
general reasons for bringing us there
his concern about the importance of
religion at this time in America and the
necessity of religious leaders really
helping the American people through the
crises what I put forward were certain
points that I thought were very
important I think the most salient ones
were the the absolute essential
separation between the acts that
occurred on September 11th and Islam and
I think that they knew that before I
made that point that III and yet this is
a president who uses the word crusade
sure I think crusade I I think that's an
unfair thing to say I think crusade is a
word that would easily come to my mind
it's a legitimate English word and for
most Americans and British people it
doesn't suddenly inspire images of that
night's going off to Jerusalem it really
does it given who well he's probably his
most important audience was in the
Islamic world exactly and I think he
jihad is a legitimate English word right
now so I think that it could have been
used in that way that this is jihad
against people that are subverting
social order something like that I mean
I I think that it's as Ed wasn't just
stupid I don't I don't think that he's a
stupid man
what do you think of him I think that
he's he's a very intelligent person I
think that
like many Americans he's probably not
really aware or as aware as Americans
should be of what goes on around the
world I think that was one of the
criticisms about him before he came into
public office in or at least the highest
public office in the land so I think
that that that is something that the
administration in Washington really
needs to to to bone up on so to speak
they need to do some serious homework
about Islam I think that generally in
the Muslim world quite a bit is known
about American foreign policy in America
very little is known about how American
foreign policy is perceived most
Americans think why are they so angry we
give them food all the time we're always
giving aid we give billions of dollars
in aid why are people upset with us I
think a lot of Americans really do
genuinely feel that and I think there's
a lot of goodwill in America and yet you
say the first piece of advice you give
him is that this must not the the fan of
his terrorism must be separated from the
fact that these were Muslims who carried
out these acts like that do you think
that this is a war whether whether the
intention was that what you think it is
in danger of becoming a war if it isn't
already between the Western izi I think
that there's people within the Western
academia in the political environment
that do perceive Islam as a very serious
problem it goes you can read Arnold
Toynbee
in the civilization on trial he has a
section in there he wrote in 1947 called
Islam in the West and in there and many
of these people read Toynbee still in
there he says that well unto the West
paraphrasing well into the West if we
awake the sleeping giant of Islam as it
has been awakened in the past so I think
that there is a real concern there has
to be do you think therefore that the US
government is at war with Islam I think
that it's very very complicated and I
think that in reality we have to accept
the fact that America on September 11
something very profound happened and
America was attacked I think to call it
a war is very dangerous because a war is
a sovereign state aggressing on another
sovereign state here we have a cry
committed I think it's really a crime
that was committed in the state of New
York and has federal implications
because the the primary suspects are
from other countries but there is no
state declaring war on Japan declared
war on the United States after after the
attack on Pearl Harbor but since that
event there has been another significant
event which is that the u.s. a sovereign
state is attacking another state another
southern state Afghanistan and this is I
think the real tragedy I think that this
is a tragedy because I think what it
does is it begins to polarize the Muslim
world and I think that we're in danger
of falling into this self-fulfilling
Clash of Civilizations prophecy III
think that Muslims in the Muslim world
and I lived there for over ten years
I've gone back a few times a year for
the last several years and I've made the
pilgrimage to Mecca several times the
Muslims really do feel that the West has
been relentless in its attacks that that
is the perception whether it's valid or
not that's for people to decide but that
is the perception of the man on the
street okay explain something please you
we have the call for a jihad as a result
from the Taliban from al Qaeda saying
all good Muslims must rise up yes I'm
sitting looking at someone who's
speaking an American accent with white
skin speaking on behalf of the Muslim
world can you explain that call to arms
that seems to resonate around all all
all Muslims I think most Muslims that
there is a tradition in Islam that's
that says that the Prophet Muhammad
peace be upon him said that the my
community my nation is like one body if
part of it is suffering the whole body
suffers and and I think that this is
difficult in the West we've been very
secularized we're distant from religion
I don't think that type of Christian
solidarity exists that you find in the
Muslim world amongst Muslims when we
read about Chechnya when we read about
Kashmir when we read about Palestine
when we see these as isolated parts of
the geographical map
for Muslims it's not really like that
they read about it with with deep pain
feeling that these are their brothers
and sisters and they all
so feel impetus in that they're not
doing enough for them so there's a real
feeling of impotence in especially
amongst the male population when bosnia
I remember when the women all those rape
stories coming out of Bosnia I remember
the pain that so many Muslim men felt
and a lot of Tears a lot of real grief
and pain and I think what happens we
tend to forget that the West we numb our
pain with intoxicants we in the West
most Western people have the option of
taking drugs of alcohol just to kind of
numb that that angst you know that that
difficulty of life in the Muslim world
sorry you can't say that this is a
humanitarian thing is well hold on what
I can hold on what I'm saying is in the
Muslim world intoxicants is not really
an option for many many Muslims there's
a lot of suffering and I think one of
the ways that that's a all the West just
drink to get over problems I think that
we have very serious problems in the
West one out of 10 people in Washington
DC according to us today is addicted to
drugs I mean we have serious problems we
really wish you don't extraordinary that
almost a stereotype that the West are
taking drinks look we're look where we
have the most serious problems in the
underclass of the West in in in America
in the african-american communities in
the Hispanic communities these people
tend to be the underbelly of our
societies there's a lot more pain in
those communities I think in in the
Muslim world you have very similar
situations you have very critical social
conditions that that are really subhuman
in some areas you have a lot of
repression people don't realize this in
the West there's a lot of pain what what
what a lot of human beings tend to do is
I hold on I'm gonna finish the thought
what a lot of people tend to do when
they have pain is numb that pain anger
is an opiate for pain and I and I think
that underlying a lot of the anger that
we're seeing in the Muslim world is real
grief with the one thing that occurs
maize is saying this and we're slightly
getting off the point is that
Afghanistan is one of the world's
largest producers of the drugs that
you're saying isn't that ironic isn't
that ironic don't you think that's very
ironic do you think that those people
really want to produce opium do you
think that most people there was a on a
BBC
a documentary they had one of these
farmers who told this BBC interviewer
and it was shown just recently he said
we don't want to grow these drugs but
help our country so that we can grow
wheat help us this country was destroyed
let's get back to their idea of the the
division between Islam and the West we
have these military strikes in
Afghanistan now do you think that they
will act as a recruitment drive for the
likes of our al Qaeda
I think that they have that potential I
think that there's a lot of very
confused people in the Muslim world
right now I really do I think there's a
lot of confusion I think unfortunately
that many Muslims feel betrayed by their
governments by their leaders they feel
humiliated betrayed betrayed because of
what because they are so slowly they're
not defended because they watch their
their countries being attacked they
watch Muslims on television being beaten
they watch these things and they don't
feel that anybody's really sticking up
from I think a lot of what Muslims feel
is that blood is is worth a lot in the
West that human rights are worth a lot
in the West but I'm talking about how
they feel I mean I'm just trying well I
think what we need to do here really is
we need to listen to what people are
saying one of the things about conflict
resolution and we know so much about
these things when we ignore our social
sciences in these areas just listening
to somebody and just legitimizing their
pain legitimizing their grievances by
just nodding your head but to ignore it
to say it's us versus them
we're in dime novels we're in cheap
novels look look at you look at a hero
in a Shakespearean tragedy a hero in a
Shakespearean tragedy you wonder if he's
actually a villain in disguise okay
because this is what great literature
does it brings out moral ambiguities and
I think none of the moral ambiguities
here are being brought out we need to
bring out these these moral ambiguities
I don't explain them for anybody who
could listen or or read the Testaments
left but the testimonies left behind by
the suspects in these bombings on in
these hijackings on the 11th of
September
they claimed they were being carried out
in the name of Allah now people in the
West listening to that trying to
understand why can you explain how they
can be carried out money I think it's a
deep aberration I think there's a real
pathology here I don't think these
people are insane because they're
capable of obviously functioning in the
world and and and the definition of
sanity although in legal Western legal
theory it's it's the ability to
distinguish between right and wrong but
I think that these people are acting
with reason however if we look at what's
going on I think really you're dealing
with very serious psychopathology in in
Islam suicide and homicide are two of
the gravest sins in Islam the reward of
which according to the Quran and the
prophetic tradition is hell and so I
think it's very ironic that they're
committing two crimes at one time both
suicide and homicide because there is no
justification for the taking of innocent
lives and and and as I've been flying in
the last few days I did quite a bit of
flying in the last few weeks I'm looking
at these stewardesses you know and just
thinking my god you know what
what can legitimize in anybody's mind
the right to take a human beings like
the Quran says if you kill one human
being without right it's as if you've
killed all of humanity how can somebody
who believes in that book with such
arrogance arrogating to themselves the
right to be judge jury and executioner
they have no legitimacy whatsoever so
how can the Quran be perverted in some
in the same way that the Christianity
can be perverted in the same way Christ
says in Leviticus we or Deuteronomy
we've got verses that say go into the
villages and kill everything breathing
kill every man woman and child that's in
the in the in the Bible in the Psalms
Psalm 137 smash fit babies of babble up
against the rocks and I don't have many
suicide Christian we we have in our
history as you see we're not religious
anymore you know don't forget that
really we're not religious anymore the
Muslims are still devoutly religious
people we have Psychopaths we have
people that go into into schools and
shoot little children we have people we
have
people going and blowing up things but
there was a man who recently who slit
the throat of a bus driver a Greyhound
bus and seven people died on board what
caused him to do that I mean these are
problems aren't they they're human
problems
unfortunately religion is a wonderful
wonderful refuge for psychopaths so what
is the role of Islamic clerics here I
think the role is to clarify to the
majority of Muslims the vast majority
are a statistically insignificant group
of people they don't represent point
zero zero zero zero one percent of the
Muslims twenty percent of US population
is Muslim I mean we cannot afford in
this late time to isolate these people
to alienate these people I think this is
absolute madness we have to deal with
the the seriousness of what we're in
have it's not attacks not done enough
right I think they need to do more I
think that these issues need to be
understood so you saying they are they
too partly to blame well no I think that
a lot of people don't realize that in
many Muslim countries clerics have no
freedom they do not have freedom of
speech I think also that there is terror
people are assassinated people I mean
this is the real world hold on a second
this is a religion this is their
religion they they've surely other
people who should be guiding yeah you
haven't lived in the Muslim world that's
all I can say I've lived there I've seen
it I know what's going on what are you
saying I'm saying that the voices of
religion have been intimate voices have
been stifled to such a degree in many of
these countries that these type of
people begin to speak for the Muslims
and that is a tragedy this was this was
reported in US News and World Report by
a professor from Duke University a
Christian professor who said we have not
done enough to put pressure on on Muslim
lands to encourage the promotion of
traditional Islam people don't realize
that most of the traditional teaching
institutions in the Muslim world were
dismantled surely it's not if the mad
mullahs as you seem to be saying have
control of the image of Islam around I
don't they're not mad mullahs are these
people aren't scholars they really
aren't I mean some of them memorize the
Quran but they they don't understand the
source and then why isn't the rest of
the Islamic faith saying hold on a
second coming
at what I mean this it's something that
Margaret Thatcher made the point about
the British Muslim clerics should have
come out more strongly and I know you
had sympathy with that view I what I
said was that I feel that that when we
you see if I come out and say yes we
condemn these absolutely but we have to
realize that what causes these things
that begins to sound like justification
in the minds of a lot of people and I
think that's very dangerous I think yeah
you know I went a few days before the
hijacking you said in a speech that the
u.s. stands condemned it had a great
great tribulation coming to it this is
something that I've heard from my
Christian father for years he read a
book by Ramsey Clark the former attorney
general on war crimes in Iraq this is
something that is known today you're
telling me that kind of talk is
dangerous was it not dangerous
two days before I and I think I think
that it is legitimate for anybody in
America who wants good for that people
to remind people of their moral
obligation I think that American people
have a moral obligation to understand
things at a deeper level it's a
representative government we pay taxes
we have to realize that many of the
weapons that are flooding the world are
coming from France from England from
America from Israel I really do not
understand the contradiction between the
fact that a moment ago you're saying
that there is a danger in explaining the
fact that it's us farm yeah hold on yeah
I think you're really mixing words here
what I was saying was what in sympathy
with Margaret Thatcher that when she I
think when we look at some Tavor 11th I
have no theological authorities say that
was a punishment from God I don't know
the mind of God I can't say that that's
a tragic event it should not in any way
what I was speaking was in general terms
that I think that there are many things
happening in the world and I have not
just said that about America by the way
I've said it about Muslim countries I've
said it about my own self I stand
condemned I mean in theological terms we
all fall short of the glory of God and
and and you might be hearing me speak as
a politician right now or in political
terms but don't forget I am
theologically trained I speak in
theological language Abraham Lincoln in
his second inaugural address
said to the American people the Civil
War is a punishment from God for the
treatment of African American people
knew he called them in the United States
why could he say that to the American
people and they didn't all get shocked
because they were people very fluent
with the Bible if you read the Bible it
talks about that if you transgress the
boundaries of God you're punished for it
now for me to say this is a punishment
that's not my role but I think we need
to reflect on what's going on in the
world not just in America I'm interested
in your role because here you are as we
say you're brought up as a Christian you
convert it you're now a tithing no
president I didn't abandon my core
values when I when I entered into this
well nothing my parents taught me my
core values none of them were abandoned
what I'm wondering is why it is that the
president can come to you almost one
time I don't think that wants me to be
called a presidential adviser you have
been Bush's pet Muslim a collaborator
Western Patsy I think that you're always
going to find that Muslims that that
really attempt to go out and do
something I think that there are there
is a provincial ISM amongst certain
segments of Muslims that there's a
provincial ISM that's very dangerous I
think we find it in the West I think
that in the time we're living in we need
to break this stuff down we need to
build some bridges I think the world is
is too polarized right now I think
bridges need to be made we have to get
out of this type of language because
it's a very dangerous language black and
white us versus them the world's a
little more interdependent I think the
fact that over a thousand Muslims which
is probably 20% of people killed in the
World Trade Center that were Muslims
which represents their statistical
numbers out in the real world 200 of
which were illegal Bangladeshi
immigrants which is also a tragic
metaphor for for for what's going on how
easy is it as a Muslim and presumably
strive to be a good Muslim to live in a
non-muslim country I think that the
freedoms that exist in America in
Britain I think they're extraordinary
and I don't want to lose them I really
don't I think the Bill of Rights of the
United States of America is an
incredible document I think that that
much of what is in the Constitution is
very consistent with Islamic legal
theory
and yet also turn on the television guru
walking past bars I mean that well you
have a choice nobody I've never
nobody's ever put a gun to my back and
said go into the bar and have a drink
nobody never put a gun to my back watch
pornography
nobody's ever but if there is a thinking
among the Muslim community that to be a
good Muslim it is easier it is best to
live among other Muslims you know it's
interesting that I've met many
immigrants who said it's much easier for
me to be a Muslim in the West than it is
to be a Muslim in the Muslim world I
swear to God
I've met many Muslims and because
there's there's more freedom in this
country I don't think you realize I
would hope because you seem a very
intelligent person but there's not
freedom of assembly in Muslim countries
Wilson's can't even get together people
can't in most Muslim countries there's
not freedom of speech really do you
realize that are you aware of that I'm
seriously I've lived there do you know
that I visited people in the Muslim
country and there visited by secret
police to ask what we talked about what
type of terror is that I mean isn't that
is not when it I believed her what about
that said what is your view of the
Taliban regime they said I think the
Taliban is a tragic result of the fact
that that Afghanistan was in a it was a
victim of the Cold War it was invaded by
Russia
it was used militarily by America in a
sense America did them a great favor by
helping them get rid of the Russian
aggressor but after they did that at a
cost of 1.5 million Afghani lives
imagine that suffering 1.5 million
people the mining of their country
millions of mines everywhere hold on and
then America their own CIA analysts in
the administration have admitted that
they warned them don't walk away from
this there was no martial plan think
about Nazi Germany the Nazis went in the
Germans went insane 13 years after the
Versailles Treaty out of the humiliation
of the Versailles Treaty the Weimar
inflation the country went insane the
Muslims have been living in a lot of
humiliation for over a hundred years
I've explained it to me just just
briefly if you you are a nit Muslim
living in the West and you're yet you're
saying that all these Islamic countries
all of them because not all of them know
they've got it wrong I think a lot of
them do and there's a lot there's a lot
of good in the Muslim world there's a
lot of being arrogance in that in what
in my position
yes it's using its the Western culture
system value system is is fine and good
and the right way to do things I think
you know I think hold on I did I'm not
melodramatic all right things are
black-and-white really I don't see them
I think there's a lot of problems in the
West I really do I think we have a lot
of very serious social problems I think
the Enlightenment ideals the things that
we're committed to ideologically most of
them are very consistent with Islam and
I think that's the best of the west and
that is a tradition I grew up in my
father was a humanities teacher and and
and I'm committed to many of those same
ideals on the other hand there's a lot
of decadence there's a lot of things
that troubled me greatly about the West
the breakdown of family all of these
things Muslims Muslims are as distressed
as many Western people about these
things in these societies I think good
Western people are as distressed about
these things I think television a lot of
what's on television bothers many many
good fair-minded Western people for the
Muslims a lot of this stuff is shocking
because they still live within the
framework of a traditional ISM that has
become rather quaint in the West as the
use of handsome alright well thank you