[Music]
hi I'm Sherrod Crittenden welcome to
let's talk the show that brings you the
most important conversations today today
we're going to look at the question of
religion and its role and place in
contemporary society to help me that I
have as my guest she comes a Yusef he's
an American Islamic scholar an Islamic
sald based in the US and he's co-founder
of Zhai tuna College he said to be a
proponent classical learning in Islam
and is promoted Islamic Sciences and
classical teaching methodologies
throughout the world it's what it says
on the brief that you might find on on
your Google search
he's also been referred in the past by
Guardian a newspaper in Britain as
activate the West most influential
Islamic scholar and the New York ones
called him perhaps the most influential
Islamic Western world so they there's a
congruence between this transatlantic
media establishment about your place and
your voice and thank you so much I'm
Zafar being here I want to ask you about
the context in which you grew up I mean
I understand you went to a Greek
Orthodox Church to that that's what's
that's what you practice is religion and
the new subsequently converted Islam
many people talk about conversion and it
what it does to somebody in terms of
their their relationship their religion
often here we think of them as being
overzealous they tend to be overzealous
you've had a different trajectory please
tell us once was all then you became
poor if you were Christian right right
well Paul had a conversion experience on
the road to Damascus so conversion is
something that happens with people from
ancient times in and and also Islam
spread by the Sahaba were all converts
they moved from paganism into Islam some
of the few were Christian but generally
they were pagans some where Jewish also
so conversion is part of the human story
and and and it's a powerful experience
for people that have that undergo that
experience we also have awakening so
people have spiritual awakenings we have
people that might have been born Muslim
and and and they're not really aware of
their own tradition and suddenly they
have a spear
so awakening and then it becomes
important to them so for me I grew up in
California my mother was very ecumenical
she didn't really impose any specific
religion honest like my grandfather
however was Greek one of my
grandfather's was Greek and so he was a
very important person in the Greek
Church in California as well as his
father right and the Greek Church is the
Greek Orthodox it's an Orthodox Church
shares with the Russian Orthodox
Armenian Orthodox the Orthodox is the
Eastern form of Catholicism so the
Catholic Church in 1058 split into these
two different the eastern and the
Western churches so it's very similar to
Catholicism there's some differences
right it's like Sunni Shia probably
celebrate Easter on a different day
different days yeah I do want to ask you
this also is in January the question of
what is it that you bring when you when
you about many people in this country
are born into the religious faith there
of course conversions as well but what
is it that is there in the experience of
the convert who was once part of a
different faith community of a different
belief system I mean you move within the
monotheistic tradition so maybe that the
shifts are not so great but what is it
that you feel your background has
influenced your thinking about Islam and
the way you articulate a vision is well
I think converts bring new blood into a
religion Islam in fact in this area
Islam was quite late coming to the area
one of the interesting things about
Indonesia and Malaysia is that Islam
spread purely by commerce and and so you
have a different tenor I think the
feeling of Islam here the also my
experience of the Malay personality is
that they tend to be I think welcoming
people by their nature they're not
they're not a they're not isolated
people there's not a kind of sub Cystic
approach to the world they this is a
really beautiful part of the world and I
would hate to see the type of religion
that has emerged in some parts of the
Muslim world which is very isolationist
and exclusivist it kind of pushes people
away so we have now increasingly Muslims
becoming intolerant towards Christians
and towards and and vice-versa we're
seeing Hindus becoming very intolerant
towards the Muslims in India so these
are problems with globalization and I
think Malaysia offers us an incredible
opportunity for a type of model for the
rest of the world because increasingly
now the world is is it's it's
interpenetrating the the your you're
probably ancestors are from India I will
I would yeah right I mean it's yeah so
so you yourself are here but you're a
Malay I mean you're in Malaysia
Malaysian yeah so they would that would
designate that the ethnic group right
and I'm of mixed heritage Roman Catholic
on one side and Hindu the other I do
wanna ask you about the context see the
American context in which you converted
didn't perhaps the the rise of Islam as
religion within the American public's
right you know we have expressions of
say the Nation of Islam and and all that
I mean where were you and the America
that you grew up in was it welcoming of
this identity I mean the American I grew
up in America was very different like I
grew up in largely a white country
because I grew up in the 60s the the
immigration after 65 which brought a lot
of people from places like the Middle
East and from India from Pakistan that
changed America radically over the last
few decades but the America I grew up in
I had one Asian person in my growing up
as a child and one african-american in
my classroom so everybody else was white
so the the America's changed a lot the
perception of Islam how was it coded in
America there was a time as it you know
the the rise of the nation of islam
Elijah Muhammad well first yeah and so
Malcolm X sure very political expression
of Islam I mean first of all Islam is a
very old religion in America as Lomb has
been there for hundreds of years we know
that African
slaves that were brought to America were
practicing Islam Muslims are mentioned
by the founding fathers George
Washington actually has somebody who's
procuring slaves for him saying they can
be muhammadans or Christians or even
atheists as long as they have a good
face and good character so equal
opportunity slaver in that case but it's
Islam is is a religion that's been in
America although after 65 many Muslims
emigrated you had an early immigration
Ford who the famous manufacturer of cars
Ford actually had the author of the yeah
don't wrote a call so well he was the
one that had it written he commissioned
it so but Ford had a problem with
alcohol in his factories like he saw the
production was lower and so he wanted
people that didn't drink and so they
suggested that he bring Muslims so a
large Yemeni contingent came to the u.s.
to work in the Ford factories and this
is why there are certain cities now in
this was over a hundred years ago
there's certain cities in in Michigan
for instance that have majority Muslim
populations so you're seeing it is it's
amazing and now we're seeing also that's
where Rashida Thalia the Palestinian she
comes out of that that world where a lot
of Muslims are there she's newly she's a
congresswoman numbers right and L Han
Omar
so you're seeing now we've got four
Muslims in Congress there are many
Muslims working in Washington DC if you
go into airports now you see women with
the hijab that are part of the security
apparatus okay very quickly before we go
to a break in the area of Trump it seems
interesting or paradoxical that you have
an increased visibility of Muslim
representatives even while the Trump
administration seems Islamophobia what
do you how do you account for that well
I I think that I don't like it the word
the term Islamophobia phobias in
irrational fear I think there's some
reasonable concern in Europeans and
Americans about terrorism and things
like that in the same way there's
reasonable concern for many Muslims
about the aggression of Europeans and
Americans in their countries I mean we
what we need to do is recognize that
there are genuine concerns that people
have so but I think in the u.s. overall
Muslims don't experience I think overall
the community actually is thriving in
many ways in the US okay we'll take a
short break we'll be back with more stay
tuned to let's talk welcome back to
let's talk I'm Sherrod Curtin with me
she comes our use of he's the co-founder
of Zaytuna College
he's an Islamic scholar and you also was
one of the authors of a document or a
letter dated some October 2007 called
the a common word between us and you and
as leaders in the of the Islamic world
reaching out Christian leaders now it's
been what 12 years since that letter
well maybe we could begin with explained
to us why was this letter important what
was it written in the first place and
and then we can talk about it same time
well I'm first of all the the the letter
came because of the Regensburg speech
where you had Pope Benedict gave a
speech arguing in the speech or at least
quoting somebody who said that Islam was
irrational he actually quotes it and has
him about the irrationality of Islam and
and so the the the letter was a response
to to that and it was initiated by Amir
vazhi bin Mohammed who's he's a
Jordanian from the royal family but very
active in in interfaith dialogue and
from that we initially the letter was
sent to the Vatican but we didn't get a
response and so so Pope Benedict did not
receive did not respond well I don't
think he got it
so I think there was people that maybe
didn't deliver it to him but what
happened was this is the back story that
a lot of people don't know what happened
was it was Miroslav Volf in Yale and and
Protestants that
responded to the letter and it was very
positive response and that then in turn
caused the Vatican to kind of realize oh
this letter was addressed to us and we
haven't responded so then they responded
and that led to a really interesting
initiative where we have met we meet
every four years so there's a Vatican
Muslim meeting the the the Christians
meeting of the leadership of churches or
faith communities how does it work I
mean who exactly is having this dialogue
it's the Vatican and and and Muslim
leadership right so what's interesting
because as a Vatican is a is an
organization with a straight state yes
whereas in Islam you don't have
something quite analogous to that right
right so who represents Islam well this
is a big problem and historically the
people that represented Islam were
supposed to be the Scholastic community
of scholars and and and it's it's closer
to the rabbinical tradition in Judaism
so you do have rabbis and and and you
have rabbis for instance that represent
Judaism they might be from different
groups they have like Orthodox rabbis
ultra-orthodox you have reform rabbis
you have conservative rabbis but they do
recognize some type of leadership every
religion has to have if it has a
normative tradition other words a
something that says this is what the
religion is because if it doesn't then
it's it becomes completely fuzzy and
meaningless but do they say that the
Pope that the the Catholic Church
recognizes interlocutors so they're the
Muslims who come to speak to them
recognized as equals and that is that
the basis for the conversation I well I
think again like you said the Muslims we
can't take on ourselves this idea that
somehow we represent the entire Muslim
world but hopefully amongst us are those
who represent for instance an
understanding of Islam
right now we have competing versions of
the religion so we have extremists who
are arguing that we need to fight and
actually terrorism which is there's
always been sects in Islam that have
practiced a type of terroristic approach
the the the assassins the Hajj Hashim
would kill rulers and things like that
so there's always been that element in
every religion has that Judaism has that
Christianity has that but overall Islam
is an Irena Croatia is a peaceful
religion and and the Prophet slice em
himself was peaceful in fact there's a
beautiful book that just came out
recently by Juan Cole who's a brilliant
scholar of Islam in the United States
and it's called Muhammad prophet of
peace amidst a class of empires he makes
a very compelling argument that the
prophesy said I'm did everything to
avoid war that he was not somebody that
he was by far a peaceful man he was not
a war monger by any stretch
and so this arguments how that Islam is
a belligerent religion there are Muslims
that would like to make that argument
but these are a small minority now 1.5
billion people a small minority can be
tens of thousands of people which is a
problem but if you look for instance
Malaysia had a handful of people that
unfortunately went to Iraq and to Syria
to fight a very small number India had
less than 30 people that actually went
there if you look at Europe you had
several thousand so it's quite troubling
the fact that these ideologies have
spread amongst European and American
Muslims less so in the United States I
wouldn't ask you though you know these
conversations are so wonderful when you
read reports of them of trying to find
commonalities and such seem to happen at
a kind of rarefied level the question is
even with the Catholic Church even
though they say they represent 1.3
billion faithful or whatever it is the
Catholic population is the question is
on the folk level on a popular level are
those ideas of ecumenism really
trickling down are they there on the
ground is it then Muslim world is a day
in the Christian world is that enough
company well I don't think there is and
I think we have a lot of people that
don't know their religion very well the
Provos eyes have never reviled idols the
Quran actually prohibits the the the
attacking of the the senseability
religious sensibilities of other
people's the Quran is a critical book of
polity ISM and other
it also makes critiques of Christianity
of Judaism but it warns us let's assume
allodynia the tournament do Neela do not
curse the idols of those who worship
other than Allah because they in turn
will curse God and so it's very
important that Muslims respect the the
the other face right to worship what
they worship we would like we believe
Muslims our tradition is is is a
tradition that says that Islam it has
come as a religion for all of humanity
the prior dispensations these previous
religions came for groups like hinduism
is specific to the hindus there's a
there's a Varna
it's ethnically determined the brahmana
now yeah the castilla the vaisya the
Dalit and should there are peoples so
this is very much an ethnic religion
Judaism is a tribal religion although it
does have a universal aspect to it in
recognizing no hitting peoples but
overall it's a religion of a group
beneath its rol Christianity are started
as a reformist movement within Judaism
but then became universalized so the
Muslims would argue that Islam is
uniquely a universal religion aligning
Buddhist might take they can say yeah I
think Buddhism but arguably there are
people that say Buddhism is more of a
philosophy and a technical technology in
fact some people would argue that Jews
can use Buddhism Muslims can use
Buddhism Hindus can use Buddhism that
there's techniques in there so Islam is
unique in that way that it really is a
prophet isaiah faith and it's a faith
that it's an