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Zaytuna College Convocation 2018

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Event Name: Zaytuna College Convocation 2018
Transcription Date:Transcription Modified Date: 6/14/2019
Transcript Version: 1

Transcript Text

Salaam aleikum wa rahmatullah wa

barakatu welcome everybody is menorah

non Rahim sorrow to a ceremony I say the

Mohammed Maya any wasabi was said him to

see me kathira what handle I have a

bride I mean first of all welcome new

students and our existing students to EW

no colleges our convocation which is

really to open up the school year

particularly for the master students but

we certainly are welcoming the incoming

class small but potent of our freshmen

and the returning students hundred we

this this year is for us an exciting

year for a number of reasons one we have

a really beautiful campus that's in

essence been gifted to us and it's very

important to study in a beautiful place

because what you're studying is really

about Beauty truth goodness and beauty

these are the great virtues of the

ancient world and they were virtues that

the Muslims certainly not only

cultivated but excelled at they always

made their mattresses beautiful and even

the most simple of schools we could

imagine the Prophet sallallaahu Simms

mosque where which was really his

University it was his madrasah but for

anybody who's ever been in very simple

places I lived in a place called ghetto

in West Africa and it was a very simple

mud adobe village but it was really one

of the most beautiful places I've ever

lived so even the utter simplicity of

the beauty of nature imagine having a

Masjid that's basically built from the

natural world around you the roof is

made out of date fibers and the pillars

were made out of the date palm tree and

and very simple but beautiful

straw mat carp carpets that grace the

place so it must have been a stunningly

beautiful place to study for that early

community but the Muslims excelled at

building beautiful institutions because

the perpetuity of a tradition is

strongest when it has institutions that

can transmit it to future generations so

just like we're all links in a chain

those of us who are teachers now and

still students all of us remain students

but those of us who have been up to Dena

the Tatton team with the tribulation of

teaching because it is a tribulation

with the tribulation of teaching we're

links in a chain of a tradition that

goes back 1,400 years and one of the

aspects of that tradition is advice you

know while SIA

giving advice the prophets all I said if

you look at the final Hajj the last

message to his oma was all advice take

care of your women folk stall so be nice

at Yahara you know take care of your

women folk avoid racism avoid

manipulating nature those were all his

final advice even on his deathbed the

last thing he gave was advice take care

of your servants take care of your women

the prayer the prayer guard your prayer

so this is one of the aspects of the

tradition which is advice allah subhana

wa ta'ala gave the best advice when he

said we give you the advice that we gave

the previous pupils before you that you

should be awfully aware of God you know

awful in the original sense of that word

filled with all you know that an a

temple law when I was saying Aladeen

America become well yeah come any type

of law that you should have you know we

gave advice to the previous people and

to you that you should have this awful

awareness of God so in the spirit of

advice I want to give you students a few

these pieces of advice and because we're

attempting to do something I think is

really unusual and that is to grapple

with two traditions it's hard enough to

grapple with one tradition and very few

people ever master one tradition very

few people ever master even one segment

of one tradition if you look at our

tradition for instance the period of the

Quran there's ten variants of the Quran

that are considered acceptable those

take now for most people that master

them they take a good life time to learn

calligraphy alone is a lifetime study

now so many aspects of the tradition

really do take a lifetime there's a

young 22 year old Arab boy who has

memorized all nine collections of the

hadith he was tested recently in the

Haram and it was really stunning to

watch the the testing by mahadji Thoon

they would only give him the first part

of the hadith and he would finish it and

then tell which book it was in and it

was it was really quite a masterful

performance but the point is he was

gifted with a photographic memory

obviously and our OMA has had many

people like that I've met a few myself

that that's a great gift memories a

great gift and it's it's really a almost

it is a prerequisite to to to studying

tradition to have a retentive memory at

least it's not a condition for HT HOD

that you have rote memorization but you

have to know where to find the things in

the books at least so in the spirit of

that I'll look from two traditions let

me give you some fatherly advice to our

younger students the one comes from

Amanda and Joe aney who said he wasa in

rewire lenten and Elma in Lobby citizen

you will not acquire knowledge except

with six things some Becca bit of Syria

and by and by Annie I will give you in

detail what those six things are and

then the first one he said that cotton

which is intelligence you have to have

some level of intelligence to grapple

with this

one of the things about our tradition is

that we actually believe in what's

called a fete and one of the names of

God is El Fattah the the opener the one

who opens and gives you openings

I saw a fella at one Shetty see that

really struck me as interesting it was a

photo about a student in Fez who was not

very smart and but he was really

struggling and and and they asked

whether or not he should be kicked out

and his stipend taken away from him and

then the the photo is give him ten years

and if the foot that doesn't come to him

by then get rid of it so that was quite

good there's a motor tanyon story just

about because it's important because

some of you all of us feel that our

intelligence is is not what we would

like it to be hence we've got a whole

industry of AI trying to work out how we

can just insert chips into our brain and

become super computers but all of us

feel that you know we're not really

worthy or intelligent enough to grapple

with some of these ideas so just two

quick stories one there was a more

tanyon who studied the motor sort of

Hadiya and and it takes a few years to

study this book it's a book of really

riddles and he had a very difficult time

with it and he just wasn't making sense

to him and he had studied it 10 times

and he still really couldn't understand

it and he decide he was going to give up

and he went and he was sitting by an

anthill and then one of the things that

more teens love to do is watch insects

and bugs they're incredibly they're like

oh it's like a culture of entomologists

because in the desert there's not a lot

to watch and so you get like I really

got used to watching like lizards and

dung beetles are fascinating to watch

carrying their dung around I've got a

whole culture of dung beetles now but we

he watched this ant trying to get a

piece of couscous up the anthill and and

it kept rolling down as like Sisyphus

and and the aunt did it 10 times and on

the 11th time it got in with this piece

of couscous and he said to himself I

can't let a aunt have greater aspiration

than me I'm gonna do it one more time

and he had his opening so that's a

famous story another story is is a

famous story of imam @f Dasani who was

noted to be not very bright and he had

an incredible spiritual experience and

after that he was noted for his

incredible ability to grapple with the

most difficult metaphysical concepts

with incredible dexterity so there is

hope for us we should always aspire ya

fattah ya Ali Mustafa tank arriba was a

traditional do I know I was taught that

by a habib lamin my children had that as

a dua for study you call on the Fatah

the opener and the newer so that car is

something that we know now with

neuroplasticity that it actually does

increase as you study so that and and

they used to think that it closed at

about adolescence but it actually

continues on throughout your life so the

more you study actually the bigger into

that gets and say now Omar said tydomin

Autopia Finnerty's IDO philopon learn

Arabic because it will increase your

intelligence and we know this now to be

true that if you learn a subject it will

actually increase the the

neuroplasticity of your brain will adopt

to the new things there will be more

dendritic connections and you'll be

smarter and brighter so you should see

that as you study and the harder you

study the brighter you get like the

golfer who made an incredible putt and

somebody said to him that was so lucky

he said the more I practice the luckier

I get the same is true for studying the

more you study the more intelligent

you'll get so and then he said the count

and Wahid o son you know being covetous

for knowledge like really being covetous

Hedison your wanting to know and this is

one of the things Aristotle begins his

great book on metaphysics which even

seen I read 50 times before he

understood it

he begins it by saying that all people

want to know that it's part of our

nature that's why little children ask

why why then they're the little children

are the they're the meta physicians of

the world because their great question

is always why it's not how they want to

know why they want to know causation and

so health is really important to have an

intense desire for knowledge and then

there's 2dy one says it's the bottom

which is patience and that's certainly

true is butyl wasabi it'll be patient

but also enjoin each other to patience

to also been happy with awhile soba soba

they advised each other to the truth but

also to be patient because study is

incremental you scaffold in your

studying it's an incremental you you

have plateaus and learning goes it goes

initially you might have a lot of

insights and then you plateau and those

plateaus are very difficult because you

get bored and so it's very important and

and boredom is the great enemy this is

the the great that the the one of the

seven deadly sins it's called acedia

which they called it the the noonday

devil because it was the one that

afflicted monks more than anything

because they they were supposed to

meditate in their cells and they would

get bored and so boredom

they caught now you know a type of

laziness but it's really it's a it's

really a nun way that sets in this type

of boredom and one of the things that

the great philosopher Kierkegaard said

is that the people who remove God from

their lives they become afflicted with a

deep boredom they they become very bored

with life and he said always

accompanying that boredom is a type of

cynicism and so they're always looking

to be stimulated because they're just

bored with everything whereas people

that have gone in their lives are in a

constant state of wonder because God is

just so extraordinary and so amazing and

so bewildering one of the meanings of

Allah in Arabic is the one that

bewilders and it creates high era in you

so that's very important is to learn how


alone with yourself right it's very

difficult for a lot of people so it's

debar own and in another rewire HT had

on to really struggle and give a lot of

effort and then and then he said well

below cartoon below ha in Arabic is what

will get you somewhere it's like the

provision you need to complete a task

Bella is from Bella ah you know to reach

something so Bulova is what enables you

to reach something so the beluga is I

mean people here you've been given a

great gift which is leisure time it's

time where you don't have to worry about

the cost of things Imam Shafi he said lo

could live to shira Abbas or attend

surah abasa Ratan madam to Masada if I

if I was forced to worry about how much

the price of onions were I would have

never learned in other words having to

think about worldly affairs all the time

really prevents you from that type of

stress-free environment as stress-free

as up as possible dunya is stressful by

nature and and then he said and then

there's another rewire horrible which is

being in a place where you're not from

because when you're in a place where

you're from you've got all your friends

and all your distractions but by going

moving away to another place

that's why Retta was so important in the

Islamic tradition for study was actually

to take a journey to learn to get away

from your environs that were distracting

all your friends and all your companions

and and then and then he said what tell

Pina was seven and then to learn from a

teacher tell Pina loose Taven it's very

important traditionally it was said that

the the knowledge was in the breasts of

men and and women obviously because

there are many great women scholars

especially in that early period the even

sad is filled with women and

historically about 15 percent of notable

scholars in any generation were women

this has clearly been proven by the

thought literature the biographical

literature of scholars that between ten

and fifteen percent in any generation of

notable scholars were women so we did


many many great female scholars they

tended not to write out of modesty and

humility because writing was considered

very dangerous that's why the there's so

few tough seers

despite the fact we had so many great

scholars they just didn't want to write

about the Book of Allah and that's why

we have so many toys we'd books and

grammar books because they weren't

worried about getting those wrong and

then he said the and the T and then he

said what lose our money and having time

that knowledge really takes a lot of

time so you have to you have to have the

time to learn and when you when you

graduate from the BA this is really the

beginning of the journey and then the

Masters traditionally the Masters was

our highest degree in the West the PhD

was a research degree that came later

but the original masters was the highest

degree because it was a license to teach

which still in our culture it's a

license to teach that what it's saying

is that you've studied enough to be able

to transmit what you studied to other

people so you have to work to become

masters as best to your ability because

when you get that degree you can go to a

college you can go to a high school and

you can get a job as a teacher and so

it's very important that it not be you

know in our tuition we have what's

called shahadat Azure which is false

testimony and she Mohammed Amina Shin

clearly was asked once what what the

best definition for false testimony was

and the word in Arabic for testimony and

for diploma are the same and he said

it's these diplomas that you get when

you graduate from from this institution

he was teaching in Medina so you don't

want your Shahada to be Shahada to Zoar

you want it to be really to be

meaningful so and then how do boubakr

also gave advice he said that that you

he said that you have to have

humility there's a verse in the Quran

that says surah and ayat Allah Dini

attica Beruna but I will remove my signs

from those who have arrogance in the

earth behavior hack without any warrant

for that because only Allah is

mutakabbir only Allah can declare his

greatness and so that's very important

humility that without humility you will

not be able to learn and arrogant people

can have information but they will never

have wisdom it's just they're mutually

exclusive and so that's a very important

then he said also to have humility

before the subject there's you know a

charitable reading of things you should

always read things first charitably

before you read them judgmentally to

have a type of humility to make sure you

understand things come in I even Odin

sorry hawa a patio for famous sake me

and motanaby says how many people find

fault in something and the fault is

their understanding of that thing right

because you didn't know understand the

grammar of it or there was a misprint

and you assumed that it was right or you

you you were applying something from

another science to that science that

wasn't applicable like demanding

precision in one science that doesn't

allow for the type of provision

precision that you think it allows so

that's very important is to have

humility before the subject and then he

said humility before the teacher it's

very important to have humility before

the teacher and sometimes teachers will

have students that really challenge them

because they're smarter than them right

because I had students that I know are

smarter than me and you really have to

respect their intellect but they also

have to understand that there's a type

of humility that's necessary with

intelligence that if it's not there it's

very easy to become arrogant and it

becomes very dangerous and so even if

you think that you might understand

something better than the teacher be

very careful because you might not and

if you do there's a great wisdom and

benefit in just simply being hum

because it's a great gift and then

having a good opinion personal one is

very very good you know they called

Saint Thomas Aquinas the dumb ox you

know and they used to make a lot of

jokes with him because he was very easy

to play tricks on and they said there's

a story once that one of the monks said

was looking out the window and he said

oh my god a flying cow and Aquinas went

to the window to look and they all start

laughing and he just turned and said

better to believe in flying cows than

monks that lie so personal one is a very

good approach just to have a good

opinion two to think the best of people

before you think the worst and then he

said to scaffold like to recognize

grammar is is what it all begins with

grammar if you don't know grammar you

cannot learn a civilizational tradition

because it's based on grammar and and

and also obviously logic which is very

important we're trying to restore the

centrality of that science in our

tradition and and the logic that we're

learning is a logic that a lot of people

that are involved in this area think

it's been supplanted by other forms of

logic propositional logic Gottlob freak

started this movement to get rid of the

metaphysics of logic which is largely

found in the concept so the type of

logic we're teaching here is a classical

form of logic but it's very important

because one of the things that we talk

about freedom of speech

everybody clamors about freedom of

speech which is a highly overrated

privilege freedom of speech or some

people obviously would view it as a

right freedom of speech is predicated on

freedom of thought and freedom of

thought is predicated on being able to

think freely most people can't think

freely because they're shackled with the

constraints of their own intellects with

with the logical fallacies like hasty


you're not thinking freely if you make a

hasty generalization you're thinking

based upon a default setting of the mind

itself and then he talks also about

madad Cara which is very important to

most of your study will be on your own

and then when you do more that get out

with your fellow students in other words

speaking amongst them about the subject

matter and that's why the cohort system

is so important because the cohort

system creates a community of learners

that's because you're reading the same

books and one of the gifts of different

people reading the same book is there

that they find out they're reading

different books because their

understandings differ and so they can

allow insights somebody might have an

insight that you didn't know and one of

the studies they did at UC Berkeley that

I studied when I was at GT u was a

really interesting study about group

learning and and they were struck by how

good the Asians did in math and how poor

some of the other communities were doing

in math so they took some of the other

communities that were doing poorly in

math they first of all they studied what

the Asians were doing they found by and

large they studied math together and so

they would help each other work out the

problems so they actually had these

students groups minority groups that

were not doing as well in math actually

studied together and consistently they

found that their grades went up from

that so group mode akhada is very

important so that's an Islamic tradition

and I want to look at quickly at and

then I'll conclude my remarks look at

from the Western tradition we have

Shakespeare who was obviously a great

master of many many subjects it's clear

for anybody who's ever read Shakespeare

he he was also a great sportsman he knew

he knew a lot about different sports

especially Bowlings one of his favorite

traditional English bowling so like I

there's the rub

and that's a sporting metaphor there

that he's using so he has

advice to latest who was going off to

study from his father Polonius and he

says in that he says and these few

precepts in thy memory

in other words retain these I'm gonna

give you some advice I want you to

retain them see thou character you know

really work on your character on your a

lock your moral well-being give thy

thoughts no tongue

don't don't always have to give your

opinion if i thoughts no tongue nor any

unproportioned thought his act in other

words don't act on thoughts that you

haven't fully deliberated really think

deeply about what you do before you do

something because most of the major

mistakes we make in life are from doing

things without thinking and one of the

most amazing things about our tradition

is what's called istikhara which is

where if you're going to do anything of

any serious consideration you always do

is Sahara which is a prayer

where you actually pray to God as the

haruka right I ask you to choose for me

right Esther uka the with your knowledge

stop the auto capital Attica and and and

I'm asking you with your ability to you

know to do that so that's very important

and then he says be thou familiar but by

no means vulgar be familiar with people

but don't go down to that level that

very often happens when people become

too familiar which is where they tend to

become vulgar right Vulgarian is a word

you might want to look up because we

have a whole culture now of vulgarians

where people that swear for no reason

one of the signs of the end of time the

Prophet said you will see obscenity

without any reason because you used to

be people swore when they got angry now

people just swear right just for the

sake of it an obscenity is it's it's

obscene for a reason every culture has

obscene words that that

so that's that's something very


don't become vulgar the friends thou

hast and their adoption tried grapple

them to thy soul with hoops of Steel the

prophets Eliza have said one of the

signs of the end of time is he said you

should count yourself lucky if you have

one true friend and a true friend is

gold right it's the one that you shed to

do Shem the holy edge Mac he will do

everything he will basically pull

himself apart to pull you together so

that's a true friend so friends are true

friends are rare and it's a very high

mom in Islam the my palm of sadaqa and

Cydia in Arabic which is a true friend

means that the one who's who's who's

truthful they don't they're not

obsequious or they'll tell you what they

really think

but do not dull vie palm with

entertainment you could look at this a

few different ways but one of the

meanings is don't everybody you can't

shake hands with don't let him become

your boon companion you know just

because a lot of people just like

sitting around with people and just

shooting the breeze and and if you find

an entertaining person it becomes a type

of enjoyment so don't don't dull thy

palm with entertainment by just going

around looking for people to associate

with and one of the the snares of the

devil with students is to get them to do

everything except study so you will

constantly be distracted and you and I

feel sorry for students today in that

the distractions are much greater than

they've ever been for people so I had

the good fortune of studying in some

really isolated places so I know the

blessing of pure isolation and then he

says of each new hatched yet do not dole

I palm with entertainment of each new

hatched unfledged comrade and so beware

of entrance to a quarrel

but being in there that the opposed may

beware of thee so don't don't

G da I'm America Robin Lana literally he

he was once in a in a gathering and they

started arguing and he got up and he

shook his Rida like almost like a

masseuse shakes their hands out after

they massage just to kind of get that

out of their system he shook his Reed

and he said unto me horrible

he said you you're war and he left and

he used to say lay seulji down minute

Dean fish a this religion has nothing to

do with argumentation and a man came to

him once and said he was from the Moriya

one of the sexes and he said yeah

Abdullah huija DeLuca let me argue with

you about this issue any mo Maddox said

why either adopt any and if you win the

argument he said Tony you follow me he

said what you da Arab dukkha he said

that's my oka if I win I'll follow you

and then he said what you Geoff either

j32 Avella bana what if a third comes

and he defeats both of us he said nuts

battle who he will follow him he said my

friend you're gonna be on a new religion

every day and he's as for me I I know

what I know and I know where I got it

and that's what I'm following so that's

tradition that you don't have to grapple

with things in each generation you have

a kind of consistent truth that's been

transmitted you have to still grapple

with it because not all of its absolute

but that's important not not to get into

arguments get into discussions but it's

very different from argumentation give

every man thine ear but few thy voice

this is very good advice for a student

you know listen attentively because this

is the time of listening but don't be so

quick to give your opinion about things

teach take each man's censure but

reserve thy judgment

listen to people's criticisms of you and

take them seriously but don't be too

quick to criticize others Imam Shafi was

once asked how did you get such good

character he said I always listen to my

critics if they made him think about

whom you know he's got a point I talk

too much or I argue too much or I'm

arrogant then he would work on changing

that and then he said costly thy habit

as thy purse can buy but not expressed

in fancy rich not gaudy you know wear

something that's appropriate to your

station don't dress like a poor person

if you're not poor and don't be gaudi

for the apparel oft proclaims the man

this is something that modern people

have completely dismissed although in

reality their apparel often does declare

them traditional people always dressed

well because they knew what the human

being was it's a very exalted creature

and and this is why all traditional

clothes have an elevating quality in

them even peasants dressed beautifully

and they always had good clothes to wear

on special occasions now we have

t-shirts at awards ceremonies this is

the type culture that we're in so and

just look at any pictures from before

the 1960s in any civilization on this

planet and look how people dressed and

look at the way they dress today because

it does declare who they are they their

minds are like that their their minds

are slouched our minds and so that's

reflected in their own state from and

then he says neither a borrower nor a

lender be good advice to not give surety

is surety as one of the great Greek

Wiseman said for loan oft loses both

itself and friend

you know people money and you lose their

friendship this above all and then

finally he concludes going back to the

beginning see thou character this above

all to thine own self be true and it

must follow as the night the day thou

canst not then be false to any man if

you're true to yourself you'll be true

to other people but if you're false to

yourself you're gonna be false to other

people so that's very good advice

so we're blessed to be starting this

year we're excited about this class it's

a small class but we're expecting big

things from the class and this is the

beginning of something and inshallah you


Sabby alone and may you be sappy alone

in in in the literal meaning of that

because you are sad alone just by the

mere fact that you're the first doing

this but may you be sad alone also

spiritually people that outstrip and and

really work hard one of the most

important things that that people have

really difficult time today is being

alone and one of the things that this

machine does is it prevents people from

ever being alone with themselves now

because you just constantly can be

entertained but you have to learn to be

alone and one of the great scholars he

said the Outland se lacy you fiducia and

see what had the animal feed and Makati

you know that meeting people really

doesn't benefit a lot other than just

kind of empty he said she said words

Oakland minion SEL Ally of the animal is

La Holly so don't have a lot of meetings

with people except to rectify your state

by meeting with people in a better state

than you and to learn to study so I

really hope you take that advice may

Allah subhana WA thought to give all of

you toe field I want to just especially

extend an immense gratitude to the

people that worked on this program and

were able to really convince WASC

inshaallah we believe justifiably that

this program was viable and that it was

in accordance with the standards that

WASC has set for the schools and

colleges of the western part of the

United States dr. del Pardee no faculty

worked incredibly hard on a very very

excellent report for our sub

of change he had immense help from his

team we've been best have Sumaira I

thought we also had dr. Hatton Imams aid

and other faculty members that helped

with this dr. Dominic Qureshi and and

and dr. Fadi and others that helped so

there was a lot of work that went into

this and I'll just conclude by saying

that like all starts there's going to be

some bumps in the road so you're gonna

have to help us also navigate those

bumps but don't get frustrated just see

them as the challenges that come with

life on Earth we're committed to making

things better

inshallah and better for you better for

us and better for this institution does

equimolar head on will sit on my knee

kumara nominate kumarahoe saliva a

cartoon or just like to take a moment to

shout out to Allah to invite methi Ameen

to the podium please said I'm Ronnie

comb we're gonna celebrate this in

shallow opening and so I invite everyone

to celebrate with us together in sha


meantime here


why Jabba sure good why Lena


Lilla Hey


bye-bye Elena beam tiny


to the worst

Jabar oh good Elena Manila Heda

oh the why moon rose over us from the

valley of a word

and we are we're to show gratefulness

the car is to Allah Allah

a namitha year


till order

lena nila heeda oh you who were raised

among stars coming away the word to be


you have brought to California nobleness

you have cried to California nobleness

you have brought to California nobleness

welcome base color to God's Way Boyd I


ain't no mutiny

you know I




while a he was I love mohammad

sallallahu alayhi wa sallam hundred

sallallahu aleyhi wa salem solo muhammed

solo love while

was I

um takbir Allahu Akber Salam aleikum


Salam alaikum warahmatullahi wabarakatuh

jazakallah khair for the song for the

nasheed this is a celebration for the

beginning of the master degree program

at Zaytuna College and we have our first

incoming class this would not have been

possible without the hard work of a

number of people that I would like to

recognize to begin with and I think one

is dr. mark Delp who really took on the

forging of our own independent master

degree we were thinking about creating

an MA degree jointly with GTU so that's

still in the backburner and we forged

ahead with our own independent MA degree

which required a far more work than

possibly would have been needed to do so

so really we have to recognize that work

sumaya sitting in the back she became

our in-house expert on WASC so much so

that now wasps have taken her to

actually become part of visitation team

and she just had lost past week training

so she would become she would go visit

other institutions to be part of the

accreditation process so in here we

her work is tremendous and now for us

we're actually going to have another was

visit for the BA degree in the

institution next February so we're

beginning the work right now to prepare

our files and our documents

institutionally for WASC visit so this

is very important that we have someone

in-house that is able to know the

topography of the accreditation process

as well as the inside work working of

WASC the same institution that accredits

UC Berkeley Stanford and other

institution is accrediting us as an

institution so the master degree really

owes a lot to the work that have made it

possible for this Catherine just for

those who can the students in the MA

degree this morning when we had our

first orientation they received the

catalog and it just was hot of the print

print of the press that the first page

table of content was missing so talk