interview with chef Hamza Yusuf is being
conducted by Harun sellers and brought
to you by Dean port comm bismillah the
first question could you tell us about
your latest book project the
purification of the heart which was
recently released how did this project
come about and why do you think it's so
important the the book purification of
the heart actually came out of a series
of lectures that I gave it was a course
that I gave several years ago in Hayward
California and that resulted in a tape
series it was produced called the
purification of the heart so that that
was the basis for the book the book was
based on those lectures and it's
basically a commentary of a poem that
was written in Mauritania by a very
well-known chef there he wrote the book
according to him chef and the Applebee
he wrote the book based on the fact that
he saw people studying silk and pita and
becoming very well-versed in the outward
aspects of the religion to the neglect
of their spiritual states and he
actually became very troubled by the
fact that he would find people that were
very well versed in arcane matters of v
and things that they would probably
never use in their entire lifetime but
they were completely ignorant of their
the states of their heart they were
ignorant of the fact that they had pride
they had anger that they had Envy that
they had loved that they had greed that
they had covetousness that they had
extended hopes about the world that they
had miserly nose so what he did is that
he began to look in all of the classical
literature particularly from the early
people of a father Benecke
it was very well known early scholar and
wrote about the states of the heart imam
animo has to be who was a companion of
female muhammad ibrahim done and
remember Junaid who according to even
taymiyah was an imam of by consensus and
Imam al-ghazali who wrote for the books
and compiled them into one full volume
or five volume work which is called
Aonuma Deen reviving the sciences of the
religion and that FES composed of 40
books the first half is mostly dealing
with outward matters although he always
brings the secrets of fasting the
secrets of zakat things but they were
dealing with the the formal aspect of
the religion but the second half begins
with the character of the Prophet in
book 20 so allah anyone in the center
the second half is concerning what he
called in Monaca for the moon yet those
things that will destroy the soul and
those things that will save the soul and
much of it centers around the heart the
human heart based on the version of
Quran yo man I am Pharaoh Madeleine what
I've been on in them and Allah had been
sitting on the day of judgment not
neither wealth nor children will avail a
man the only thing that will help him or
save him is that he bring to God a sound
heart and so a sound heart if you take
that verse seriously which I think
Muslims should it means that a sound
heart is the whole purpose of our
existence that we're here actually to
purify our hearts to make our heart a
vehicle for divine knowledge for
revelation for manifestations of the
gifts of Allah Subhan Allah - Anna what
the Christians call epiphanies and so
it's very important that people be aware
of this because according to your
Mahmoud Abbas Ali at the father behind
it's actually an obligation on every
person is not like say learning
the rules of buying or selling that's an
obligation on people that are in
commerce but well I think that's an
important point that the spiritual
science of Islam often seems to have
been looked at nowadays as optional I
think part of the problem is Muslims
conflate these things with what's called
Baraka which is taking a shape spiritual
master and going on a path of what's
called su Luke lot of Muslims conflate
these two things I think they're the
same and they're not and this is this is
a science that was traditionally taught
in Madras as irrespective of somebody of
whether somebody was in a body a car or
not
they're simply the sciences of the
religion and this is one of them it's
spiritual psychology its ethics
traditionally it was called two souls
but unfortunately two souls today is so
confused with a lot of things that have
nothing to do with traditionally what
scholars understood to be two souls I
mean so soul as a science was never
condemned by scholars it's it's just a
fact of Islam and to not to say that it
has been is just to indicate total
ignorance I mean even ten years is all
often used as a plunge and against these
things has a chapter of an entire book
in his multi-volume cetera called fatale
if it's fo wolf such was about two souls
and even a mojo co-wrote an entire book
and the daughters of sati came which is
a comet on a very famous text on two
souls so even these Imams that are used
as hammers against castle wolf they they
themselves affirmed the science what
they recognized was it was in the
science like all sciences in ship you
have problems there's there's opinions
and ships that are completely
acceptable opinions they're totally
unacceptable but they're still in the
books and and the scholars still quote
them and you have in grammar
unacceptable opinions you have the Kubik
school the bustle in school they argue
which one's the right one how do based
on that you come up with according to
our own AMA if you follow certain
schools of grammar you will actually
interpret the part on incorrectly but
those schools exist do we throw out all
of grammar because some grammarians made
mistakes in their understanding and the
same is true in tawheed which is the
science of theology there's gross errors
in tow he'd jam even soft one who was
the head of the jamia was a theologian
who said that the fire that it comes to
an end and that opinion also was
reiterated by other scholars like even
Tamia and there's I have an entire book
defending his position so a lot of
Muslims don't know that even Tamia said
that the fire comes to an end but he
interpreted he didn't say there wasn't
who knew how DD naseeha Avada he didn't
say that it wasn't
Abed but he had his linguistic
interpretations of that well the
majority of anima condemned them and
said they're wrong
does that mean we throw out everything
even Tamiya said because he made a
mistake in something that was pointed
out by other ulema I mean this is the
type of simplistic and really ignorant
reasoning that a lot of people have now
out there and they're they're not
trained they're not qualified to to be
discussing these things and I'm not
saying in any way that that I'm this is
not my position these are the positions
of the Ummah this is just what I was
taught do you know I'm not that's not
something I invented or and and that's
why it's really saddening for me it's
distressing
to see the debates around these things
that really should not be debated if we
want to discuss the problems within the
science then I I agree that there are
problems and and and it's important that
they be pointed out but
it's also important that some of the
problems are debatable they're moot
points or points that are insoluble
because the scholars never came out with
a definitive position on them so that's
important also to recognize that she
laughs difference of opinion in the OMA
is very real it's very prevalent and
some she laughs are resolvable there's
preponderant positions in other words
there's positions that are sounder more
they're there they're the ones that we
should adhere to and then there are
others that it's simply it's it's just
out it's it's out you can't you can't
resolve them you can't come to some
conclusion even like in the most uh sort
of seedy Halil
he has positions in the men have well
where he won't give you a definitive
position he'll just say there's two
there's two opinions and he doesn't
decide it's called Toto Gia
he doesn't make any tell Gia he doesn't
tell you which one is the one you should
follow he just says these are the two
opinions well let me give you one
example in the purification of heart
there was a story that I heard in
Morocco it's I mean it could be looked
at as a silly story it's a story about a
man you know on a lion he's as ahead you
know the Sahib is and he comes down from
his mountain and he rides into this town
to meet this man who he can see here's
as a saint and the saint is living in a
palace and opulent and he tells the man
to put his lion in with his cow and he
says the cows you're gonna the cow will
get eaten and he said don't worry about
the cat I'll just put the line in with
the cow so he puts it in and the next
day he's very just wanted this man cuz
he he eats he goes to sleep he doesn't
see any qualities that observe it that
he has so he just writes him off as well
why do people think this is a good man
and when he goes to get his lion the cow
ate the lion that's a story it's just a
story it's a teaching story you know
it's not a hadith it's not you know
somebody can point that up and just say
what is that it's just a story it's all
it is and and you'll find that
the Imam al-ghazali mentioned stories
there's a story there teaching stories
the Quran says that Allah uses parables
uses similitudes uses likenesses why
because there ways in which people can
understand some of them are funny you
know very funny teaching stories out
there and things like that and
traditionally stories that were used to
teach I guess in some of the
purification to release a book in the
English language and our times on the
subject is also a way of kind of
reviving and bringing back a sense of
balance in terms of the complete or
holistic understanding of the Islamic
Sciences well it's a it's a science that
I feel we're in particular need of
because we have so many of these
problems afflicting our communities and
I really believe they're rooted in our
hearts do you see I'm not met many
people who what what what I've noted in
them is that their arguments have more
to do with their own personal pathology
than actually the points that they're
trying to make in other words they're
argumentative people and so they're
looking for opportunities to get into
arguments so I'll give you one example I
have I have some friends that totally
disagree with a lot of my views about
Islam but their friends I'm not making
that out I have a friend he's a
professor in Medina University in Saudi
Arabia and when I go to Medina I usually
visit him he teaches also and he doesn't
agree with some of the things that that
I was taught but it's never ever been a
reason for me not to like him and him
not to like me ever it's never been
he'll bring it up he kind of nudges and
when certain topics come up and he'll
he'll smile about it because because he
respects even though he knows
that that opinion he disagrees with he
still recognizes that it's a Scholastic
position it's a position within the
Ummah I don't think it's the right one
but I know that a lot of them adhere to
it and that's why I'm not going to make
it an issue for hating this person or
seeing this person as outside of the
scope of friendship and I think that
there are other people though that
that's not how I find them I find that
they're entrenched in positions that do
not enable them to actually just be
human I mean it just sit down have a cup
of tea hat you just let's just speak as
human beings didn't you know I'm a
convert to Islam I converted to Islam I
you know I was a Christian before and
you'll sit down and have a talk with me
as a Christian and you're a Muslim
because I'm not in some way threatening
to your whatever you believe about Islam
but because you disagree with me about
Islam you won't you won't even though we
both say let you know hating the law you
believe there's no god but the one true
God Allah and and we believe that
Muhammad SAW Allah descent is His
Messenger
I mean that's how close we are because
according to the Hadees on the Okayama
that's the biggest thing you have and
that's how close we are and then we
believe in the same book there's not
difference of opinion you know it's not
King James Version as as opposed to this
version or that version we believe in
the same book we read the same book when
I recite my bucketed I could be reciting
the same sword as you're reciting and I
pray the same number of raka it's it's
it's amazing but if I wiggle my finger
in my tisha hood and you're gonna make
that an issue or if I don't wiggle my
finger I mean my god we have a very
serious problem we have a really
serious problem DC and that that's my
point is that you know unfortunately
much of what's going on is that people
are finding ways to manifest their own
pathologies within a framework of
justification in other words I'm going
to use this religion and this isn't
really a conscious thing which is why I
I do have some sympathy because I I've
been deluded myself and I might still be
deluded about certain things and that's
the thing about delusion you don't know
you're deluded
so I know that when I forgive you one
example when I was in my early 20s
studying in the Emirates I refused to
speak English and I refused to speak
English with Arabs because I actually I
read a book by even Tamiya because I had
a roommate who was a student of Nasser
Adina albani the Mahadev from Syria and
he's a reasoning Albanian but you know
he had a lot of these books and I read
this book by even tenia the dog fell off
and I was talking to Mijares at the
Hubble Jaheim the necessities of
following the straight path in going
against what the people of Hell do and
it was a lot of it was an attack on
christianity and judaism but what was
interesting is there was some hadees in
there and they actually were good Hadees
about men yes you know on your techid no
matter how a beauty that I had said I
attic and a lady has a in the hadith
when they saw that whoever's able to
speak Arabic shouldn't speak with others
in Arabic because it will cause hiphop's
trees are growing as hard
well I took that Hadees literally and I
refused speaking that I would tell you
they came in to visit me sometime they
would come they speak to me in England
in my Arabic wasn't that strong when I
was first learning but they would speak
to me in English and I would say Maya
Jews how about that I'm Larry Jews you
know this isn't permitted to speak
inning is that that was my state and I
and I really thought that was the right
thing to be doing so that that's just
the thing about life it's a learning
curve
and people grow and and expand and Iman
Matakana Biman if you look in his 92
years his his positions changed
throughout his life Imam Shafi only
lived 54 years and he's got completely
different methods he has met have an
appeal Kadeem he's got mad mullah the
Egyptian method which is a completely
different method from hizmet had been
Iran because he was growing so not to
allow for growth is really a disservice
next one next question would be we live
in the world forever changed by the
events of 9/11 how did that day affect
you and did you learn anything from the
event like personally on a personal
level for me I think of anything I mean
there's no doubt even though there's
been an immense amount of terror in our
lifetime some of it perpetrated by our
own country and but if you look at other
for like a Rwanda
I mean Rwanda was just Rwanda is a much
more serious event than 9/11 I mean tha