I don't even think you can compare the
two what what 9/11 what differs about
September of 2001 is that it was a
spectacle that has been unparalleled
probably in human history and nobody you
know Hiroshima was the scene that
mushroom was pretty extraordinary but
nobody has ever seen civilian airplanes
plow into some of the tallest buildings
in the world explode in an extraordinary
display of fireworks and then watch
these extraordinary Towers just come
tumbling down
it was an event filmed for everybody to
see that was just so spectacular from
that point of view that it does have a
unique element that is unparalleled in
terms of the actual suffering in our
lifetimes there there have been much
greater events of human suffering you
know there's no doubt and and I would
say in some ways
certainly Rwanda certainly Chechnya I
mean the entire city of Grozny I was I
saw film of that just what the Russians
did had bombed it with plane after plane
an entire city if you look at Hamburg
what the Allied forces in world war two
did to the German cities raised them to
the ground some of those Allies when
they came in they could not believe what
was down those are crimes against
against humanity which that was part of
the irony of the Nuremberg trials is
that who was the war criminal the
Germans the British I mean the Holocaust
is is a horrific event one of the worst
in human history there's no doubt about
that but in terms of just suffering
there's a lot of suffering going on in
the world and a lot of different places
and for America it was very profound
because it it brought home some very
powerful messages and that a lot of
people don't like us some people have
legitimate reasons but that does not
legitimize using illegitimate means to
express that dislike or loathing so and
I think that's where the Muslims have
made major mistakes in what's wrong has
to be condemned simply as wrong there's
no justification you cannot justify it
there's no justification and even though
an explanation of why things happen is
not necessarily a justification in other
words like when Colombian happened a
slew of social scientists went in
psychiatrists to try to work out why did
this happen and that's important for us
to do that in terms of 9/11 which is
what some people like Michael Moore and
other people that's what they attempted
to do is just look at it like why did
this happen what did why I mean why
would people want to do this so that's
important that it doesn't necessarily
justify it but I think that the Muslims
is
for me there were many lessons but I
mean this idea somehow that some Muslims
have who are familiar with me I mean
there are some Muslims that are aware of
my work and others that aren't but the
overwhelming majority have never heard
of me and probably will never hear me
but for those people here in the states
in particular who are familiar with my
work amongst some of them there was this
idea that I made this 180-degree turn
and it's simply not true
it really isn't and for people that knew
me before closely they were very were
well aware that it was actually very
consistent with what I think and what I
believe so I was thrust into certain
situations that I personally don't feel
that I was prepared for I really wasn't
I mean to use a sports metaphor it was
it was like something in Little League
suddenly getting thrust into big leagues
and without having any training and the
speed the speed of the pitch was so much
faster because I certainly did not have
any media understanding of how
manipulative I mean I did theoretically
but I'm talking about actually living it
experiencing it seeing how your words
can be mangled and turned around I I
hadn't experienced that before as an
individual I'd read about it I'd heard
about people that had happened to but
actually experience it is very different
and and most people part of empathizing
is trying to put yourself in another
person's shoes which we do too little of
in the world it's just trying to imagine
being in another person's shoes what
does that mean to be in front of
millions of people what does it mean
when CNN's got a camera in your face and
they're asking you a question you're
realizing this is going out to millions
of people and I have to say what is
going to be the most judicious statement
that I believe and and the least harmful
to the muslims overall so you know i was
putting into a position that i probably
you know and i don't say probably i was
certainly not neither ready for nor
fully cognizant of its import so that
was a major lesson for me is that people
are being paid these interviewees
interviewers are being paid several
hundreds of thousands of dollars because
they're very clever people that when
they want something they know how to get
it they know how to elicit it from you
and if you're not prepared if you don't
know how that game works you can be
abused and manipulated and that was a
lesson but overall i think i mean
certain things that in the 90s
particularly the the later part the
latter half of the decade of the 90s
about ninety six onward i mean i was
having a lot of introspection about the
state of the muslim community and you'll
see that on top in talks that i gave in
that later portion i mean i think a good
one is the Stations of gratitude and the
duties of brotherhood where i did talk
about certain things that were very
troubling in the muslim community and
that was long before 9/11 so when people
saw me suddenly people that didn't
follow a lot of my talks or really know
what i was all about they might have
seen me once at isne or heard me a few
times or sorry really didn't follow my
thought you know as because i've been
teaching for a long time and i have a
lot of material out there particularly
recorded material i mean not enough
written material which is part of the
problem because in written material it's
very it's much less difficult to
misunderstand oral speech is actually
very complicated because the grammar is
not in the speech it's in the
understanding of the person you don't
see the pyramids the commas the
semicolons the dashes
the question marks you there are a lot
of nuances in in the spoken word that
are not picked up and unfortunately a
lot of Muslims do not have a level of
English that enables them to pick up a
lot of nuances there are also people
that are not accustomed in because the
speech is very different from if we're
just shooting the breeze as they say a
speech is very different because you
have you have arguments that are being
setup you have logical transitions you
have premises and and conclusions and if
you're not vigilant and listening to a
talk you can completely misunderstand
what a speaker saying because you might
have just your mind might have wandered
for 30 seconds or 60 seconds or a few
minutes and suddenly you didn't hear
what that person had prefaced his
remarks by so a lot of misunderstanding
occurs and and that's always problematic
with language now for me I think it's
it's probably exacerbated by the fact
that I am NOT a structured speaker and
there's benefits to that but there's
also the benefits are I'm a more
spontaneous speaker so people sense that
when they hear me talking it's not
coming from a prepared script it's
actually it's coming from my heart you
know and it's it's what I'm talking to
you people feel that it's not stale in
that way so a lot of people respond to
that that that is a benefit but I the
harm that goes with it is that sometimes
I say things that I might not have said
in the best way I also might have
regretted later because it was
spontaneous like one of the Arabs said
nah that's cool to happen where I can my
could go hop in your pod oh I said what
was true but sometimes not every true
should be said and also that if it can
actually be tangential to the point
where it does get hard to follow and
that's why you know some people who
listen to me actually will listen to it
more than once and I've heard many
people tell me that I had to listen to
that three times before I actually got
it now those are my shortcomings and
I've tried to remedy those to the best
of my ability but I usually I lose more
than I gained when I've done that in the
past so that's been a problem for me but
I'm very aware of that shortcoming and
and I'm very aware that some people have
a really hard time listening to me for
that reason because they are more
structured in their in their thinking so
I mean that that that's something you
know it's a problem I think that's
honestly something that struck me about
a lecture that's available on the the
Zaytuna site give and take for God's
sake where I thought that was very
strong mix of an outline that seemed to
be there but also that fresh mix of from
the heart a lot of strong responses in
that particular talk personally because
of the combination of those two elements
how important is it for Muslims in the
West to develop new art and media as an
alternative to what is already out there
in the mainstream media
well yeah being somewhat of a
traditionalist you know art is a very
interesting thing because in tradition
art is something you learn it's not
something you innovate your innovation
comes within the art so for instance
poetry means learning prosody it means
learning how to put another thing has to
do it some people just have those gifts
but for most people it means learning
how to to write the antipas the back
tail the iambic and then tip diameter
pentameter hexameter and then once
you've learned that once you've mastered
that that's when your innovation comes
it's it's how you bring that now in in
the modern world most of that is people
turn their back on that you see so for
instance classical music very structured
you have to learn certain things once
you've learned all those things then you
usually play what's already been written
I mean there's not very many classical
composers whereas if you look for
instance a popular music for instance if
you're playing country music I mean
everything's going to be you know GDC
and there's just this handful of chords
that the majority of country music is
working in or if you go to rock you know
da e I mean you're just working in these
kind of basic chord patterns and
progressions and so the the talent
needed to produce that type of music is
is insignificant compared to the effort
and talent that goes into producing say
for instance traditional classical music
so in art form the same is true of
painting if you're doing abstract
painting
I mean abstract painting is you break
all the rules whereas if you're doing a
type of classical painting which is is
more mirroring reality as opposed to
interpreting reality so you get the
realest school like Rembrandt everything
Rembrandt does is very real you look at
it I mean that's and one of the things
about Rembrandt is he was one he was the
first why he's so extraordinary is you
know are the first people to put warts
on people's faces I mean suddenly he was
showing people how they really look
instead of having these kind of
classical pictures of perfect people so
art is a very interesting thing because
it's obviously humans are artists we are
people that express ourselves and that's
what art is really about it's about
expressing oneself in the best way and
so all of us by the mere fact that we're
talking were artists you see by the mere
fact because speaking as a creative
event I mean if I say my son said to me
yesterday we were sitting and he's 12
years old and
he asked me about something and then I
said oh well it's it's only up to that
point he said oh it's no more and no
less but that was the word he used the
phrase he used it's no more and no less
and I said right no more and no less and
it was a serum and there were just those
things smiling you know masha'Allah
because it was was a use of an eloquent
phrase cuz he didn't have to say that
but he embellished it and it was wasn't
really intentional it was just simply
the words that came to his mind so
that's the type of expression now he's
memorized a lot of poetry so he's he's
got some motifs that he's working with
when he speaks so he'll come up with
very interesting syntactical structures
when he speaks that I've noted so we're
all artists in that way that we are
expressing ourselves there are people
that the way they dress the way they
walk the way they write but what the
artists in other words the person that
is engaged at the deepest level in that
activity what that person is doing is he
is consciously expressing himself in
other words it's it's a much more
conscious effort and experience and
that's why what we recognize when we
recognize the artist is that he's
speaking for us and and what happens is
artists taste is how how close that
artist is coming to expressing your own
experience of the world or your own
feeling so if a poet if I read a Frost
poem you might not like it but it might
speak to me if you read a Shakespearean
sonnet you might not like it but it
might speak to me might speak to both of
us some poems are universal it is so
powerful almost everybody that hears
them is moved by them at some level so
the artist then is he is speaking on
behalf of others he is expressing what
others are feeling and that's why the
shout in Arabic is the one who feel
shot out on means to feel so the Shia is
the one who's feeling things and
expecting them for others and so it's
very important that the Muslims have
people that do that historically Muslims
were great artists and our our art the
Islamic art is some of the most profound
if not I mean I would argue that Islamic
art is the most profound art certainly
in architecture certainly in calligraphy
and in many other things I mean I would
argue that the Islamic clothes are some
of the most extraordinary clothes the
embroidery patterns the the types of
textiles that were manufactured in the
Muslim lands I mean goz is from the
Muslim world it's an Arabic word as
God's lace and all these things so I
think it is important that we do that
what are the short and long term
strategies that Muslims need to deploy
in order to bring back any sensibility
to our approach as an a damn it
community in the 21st century well I
think it's it's very important that the
Muslims see themselves within the
context of the greater human family that
we are all done Oh Adam and Ben Oh Adam
is a family I mean Ben Oh Adam means the
tribe of Adam so we're all in the same
tribe which is from different clans we
believe that Islam is that is the Adamic
nature but people deviate from it now
part of the problem I perceive one of
the major problems is that the Muslims
believe now and even though if you
really press them they'll have to admit
this isn't true but they believe it that
they are Muslim and the problem is is
that indeed we're Muslim as a
sociological category in other words
when you categorize people out there you
have Jews Christians atheist Hindus
Buddhists Muslims
that's a sociological category of people
if we but our lasses hell and too
loosely moon are you Muslims he's
talking to the Muslims that's a question
in the Quran are you in a state of
submission Ben monestime Allahu Teala
the one who has submitted his entire
being to God she that aspect of Islam is
completely lacking and and what happens
is because we start we conflate the
sociological category of Islam with the
spiritual state of Islam
what happens is we fall into the pitfall
of spiritual pride and we begin to see
ourselves as better than other people
when in fact they may be better than us
because some of them just might be
ignorant they don't even know that Islam
is a revelation from God and that's why
when Islam came to me I really thought
this is true even though I was raised a
Christian I thought this is true and so
I had to become Muslim now when I became
Muslim what I was really trying to do
was enter into a state of submission
that's what I wanted I wanted to be a
submitter I didn't think I was joining a
tribe
Benny Islam and then I have to be with
the tribe right or wrong you know my
tribe ride around like Veniamin Rica
they say my tribe right or wrong my
country right or wrong love it or leave
it
that's tribal they're not truthful and
so that's where I have a real serious
problem is that people expect me to be a
spokesman for the tribe and I can't do
that
because if the tribe is wrong and I'm a
spokesman for the truth I have to say
the tribes wrong even against yourselves
that's what our law says what oh I'm
comb and I think we need people to
do that and we need more of them because
I really think we need to look at
ourselves and that is not to say that
what's going on what I mean them there's
there's so much
down so many terrible things being done
to the Muslims I'm not denying that but
what I'm saying is that's been going on
for a long time and the strategies we've
been using so far have done nothing to
alleviate that so I'm just wondering
maybe we should reassess maybe we should
actually try to develop new strategies
for changing our condition and and I
think one of the first and most
important is is to reflect on the fact
that the Quran says when Europe you when
you were afflicted with calamities you
asked why is all this happening to us
old woman and the emphasis come Said's
from your own selves that's one thing
another thing when was it a high-density
remedy let whoever find good let him
praise Allah but whoever finds other
than good let him only blame himself
that's inaudible in olia so it's right
there you tell me I mean do we take that
seriously does that mean what it says I
was once in Folsom Prison and there was
a sign we were in the mess hall is for
Eid and there was a sign that said
warning shots will not be fired and I
looked up and I turned to this man he
was in prison Muslim man next to me I
said what does that mean
and he looked at me and he said it means
exactly what it says
do you see because sometimes you you you
read something and who does that mean
so when when the Prophet SAW license
said whoever finds good that him thank
Allah and whoever finds other than that
let him only blame himself what does
that mean it means exactly what it says
so just do it
stop trying to philosophize yourself
into a corner with God submit let the
tears fall show some contrition I mean I
think we as Muslims we should be walking
around bowing our heads in contrition
and begging the non-muslims to forgive
us for being obstacles to seeing the
beauty of Islam I mean I'm serious I
feel like we should be growing up people
say what
these people what did they do to deserve
our presentation of Islam to them when
if you look at the public forum he was
patient with people persecuting him
throwing things at him spitting on him
throwing stones at him for 23 years and
then when a few of them actually finally
come to it Abu Sufian after 20 years he
and his wife who ate the liver of his
uncle bit into it and spit it out
washy who threw the spear from behind
his back in treachery and killed him and
the prophet saw him give Shahada to all
three of them sat with them in the same
way he couldn't even look at washi but
he sat with him you tell me what where
is that understanding of this long
because I want to see it where is that
20 years of persecution and he's still
saying welcome welcome into the fold
because he wanted good for people and
Iman only in his shot let me know
article hat tell you HIPPA via Heaney
MIOSHA pudina Seanie none of you truly
believes until he loves for his brother
what he loves for himself email no he
says in his commentary and I and I have
two versions of it one a more recent one
from Lebanon they removed this whole
thing from his original commentary
because it's it's politically they don't
want it they don't want this
understanding he said well hot wood
owner on your arm women Oh who wa this
should be interpreted first and foremost
as universal brotherhood in other words
the Muslims should love for his brother
the kaffir and his brothers are Muslim
what he loves for himself and then
listen what he says he says and this
love is spiritual love not human love
because humans do not desire good for
their enemies they desire harm and they
desire to discriminate against people
who are not like them and therefore
spiritual love which transcends human
love is for the sake of God you're going
against your nature for the
of God and that is why he said it is
Mustafa hab it is is not only rewarding
with God but highly encouraged to pray
for your enemies and he said therefore a
man should go against his soul and pray
for those who harm him where does that
understanding you see where is that
I mean I'd really I'm serious why is
that in our books why is that email no
way I mean are you gonna tell me that he
didn't know he didn't understand the
hadith that he didn't know the messenger
of our loss Elijah and what he meant
seriously but that goes against your
nature that's what he's saying you
desire harm for your enemies but if you
recognize that your enemies are just a
test from God for you and the point is
is to guide them that doesn't mean you
don't fight them if they're fighting you
I mean that's not what it said but don't
fight them with a hatred that you don't
want them to be guided fight them to
remove the blinders from their eyes to
remove the veils on this and that's why
when you conquer them you forgive them
and show them largess and that's when
they become Muslim I mean that's what
happened when the pulverizer marched
into Mecca he forgave them and they
became Muslim because they couldn't
understand it did he's going again
that's the power of Jesus because those
early Christians they were being eaten
by lions and they were praying for their
enemies people couldn't take it because
they were superhuman they were going
against human nature and they were
invoking angelic nature people forget
that why did Christianity spread it
conquered the Romans why the Romans were
had conquered the Christians they ruled
the Christian why how is it that the
conquered people conquered the
conquerors how because of morals that
their moral state and because of the
fact that they they didn't allow the
fact that they were being persecuted and
defeated by them to destroy their hearts
and cause them to lose their humanity
and that's why when the mongols came in
and destroyed two million muslims killed
two men
Muslim and who loggers brother ahmed
became a muslim within two years of the
conquest of baghdad and I'd be like Jeb
Bush today becoming Muslim you know sure
that's what it would be like if you like
Jeb and they're not impossible don't
think that's impossible if you think
that's impossible you know I don't think
you believe in God because he's a human
being he's facing his mortality just
like everybody else and if he reads a
sound version of the Quran if he hears
somebody speaking the truth and
realizing my god this could be another
prophet like Jesus like Moses because
they're all brothers moving to the next
question you have said that we are
living in trying yet interesting times
and that the age we're in is either
birth pains or death throes can you
please tell us more about what you mean
by this and your views on the nature of
this age well what I meant by that
statement is that on the one hand if we
look on the one hand unless eyes worked
at we're at this endgame it looks like
it's coming down they're telling us 85%
of the fish that we eat is gone it's
just gone that we've over fished all
these areas in these great oceans and a
lot of providers they're telling us the
polar ice caps are melting they're
telling us that the water is rising
right that our major cities have such
high rates of pollution that it's not
safe on some days in Mexico City or
Tokyo to go out for children because
they'll get asthmatic attacks in 1945
one out of 16 Americans got cancer today
it's one out of three so what's going on
aids aids is 50 million people so far
have died from AIDS 50 million you're
talking about the plague of the Middle
Ages the Middle Ages took 25 million
people
we're already double the number with
aids aids isn't a plague it's not a
plague on humanity so on the one hand if
you look out there it looks grim
it's high water everywhere I mean the
flood has has come the dam has broke and
and that's that's what the death throws
and looks like his we're in our death
throes on the other hand if you look out
there it looks like we're on the birth
pangs of an extraordinary Renaissance so
it is interesting that right on but
they're interesting times and I really
mean that for the first time in human
history
racism is seen by the majority of
humanity as a blight even though we're
still suffering from racism all over the
world it is no longer an accepted idea
it is rejected by all thinking people
across the board in in much larger
numbers than has ever existed in human
history 71% of Americans in a recent
poll said that they not only were not
opposed to mixed marriages but would not
be troubled if their own children
married outside of their own race I mean
that is amazing and it's happening and
we're seeing it in in in my children my
children are there Brown my when we get
to get family reunions my mother and
father's generation we had an entirely
white family now there are more mixed
children in our family reunions than
there are white children so what's going
on and that's not a novelist that is
actually becoming increasingly a norm
that in 50 years 50% of America is going
to be brown not white this is no longer
a white country it's no longer also
increasingly so it is becoming less and
that's a Christian country so we have
also the possibility of the plurality of
races and religions in conviviality
which is extraordinary
for the first time in human history
people are not being persecuted for
proselytizing I mean all over the world
people couldn't think they were allowed
to think now you can actually you can
you can choose your religion people can
choose their religion
chose to become a Muslim and this is the
first time in human history that you've
had that type of a freedom of choice
because there was a time when I would
have been burnt at the stake for
becoming a Muslim burnt at the stake so
that is an extraordinary many many
extraordinary aspects to the modern
society that we have to recognize the
tools that we have now to illuminate
people unfortunately they're largely
being used to foreign document not for
illumination but rather the opposite but
they're there and they could be used and
potentially their immense I mean even
though you know there are many things
that troubled me about Fahrenheit 9/11
just from a Islamic point of view of how
how we engage people we disagree with I
still think it's very profound event
that a film like that has grossed over a
hundred million dollars and it's only
been out for a few weeks it's what it's
going to be one of the loves grossing
films in history and it's a documentary
telling people that we did something
that was really wrong
just wrong so I think that's that's I
think there are many reasons why we
should be optimistic so this is the
paradox of our age it's an age that on
the one hand it really looks like we're
dying on the other hand looks like we've
hardly been born that brings us to the
last question from Dean point many
Muslims are suffering today the OMA
seems to be in a state of helplessness
what can we do as individuals to make
positive changes and also where are the
pros and cons of working as individuals
for this change as opposed to in groups
well for now the first thing that I
would say is about that is that our
helplessness is a gift from God
because we have to see that it's from
God God has removed our power partly
because we started thinking that it was
our power and not and not God's power so
it's a gift from God I don't think we
should see our condition as anything
other than an opportunity from Allah
Subhan Allah tada
to truly submit because the world is so
beyond it's like Robert McNamara said
one of the lessons that he learned and
this is the man who was in charge of the
Vietnam War who lived through the Cuban
Missile Crisis one of the lessons that
he learned was rationality will not save
us because he said Kennedy was rational
Khrushchev was rational
Castro was rational and yet they brought
us to the brink of destruction rational
men rationality will not save us so
that's a lesson and if that's Robert
McNamara saying that I mean how
shouldn't Muslims learn that lesson
because that's an Islamic lesson
rationality will not save us nothing we
can do what will save us nothing we
cannot do anything that will save us it
is Allah alone our Creator alone that
can save us and that's what we have to
call on Allah Subhan Allah Tala that
that's the only thing that we can do
like like one of the poets and Muslim
poets he said I bring you something God
that even you don't possess my
impoverishment that's the only thing I
can bring to you that you don't possess
everything else you have but that's the
one thing I can bring you that is
uniquely my own to give you because I
can't bring you my my strength you've
got that and and it cancels my now I
can't bring you my intelligence you have
that and it cancels my now I can't bring
you anything I can't be in you my wealth
you've got that and it cancels my now
but the one thing I can bring you is my
helplessness my impoverishment because
you don't have that that's what one gift
we can give to God that is uniquely our
own to
yeah and and and that's that's why it's
a great gift from Allah helplessness but
we have to see it as that in terms of
working in groups or not groups working
and I would say that allows with the
Jana you had a line now Jenna that's a
good Heidi so it's important that we
work together as the best of our ability
and there's some people that will never
be able to work with groups there's
personalities that that's just and those
people should find the best way that
they can do that and and that's from the
there's a chapter in variable cytosine
removing one cells from P from people to
protect them from his harm so there are
certain people that they're just they'll
sabotage everything they get into they
can't help themselves so if that's your
state then just don't don't don't block
other people from doing good work well
we thank you for your timing you're
hungry enough economy