Host: Oh thank you for being here as we've been planning to get together with you for some time and I'm gonna learn now who's the the opportunity for us let us talk a little bit about your own, how should I say, "transitions that have brought you into Islam." Maybe that would be internal and we'll go into other things well.
Shaykh Humza: I'm originally from California and my father was a university professor in Northern California and my on my mother's side actually they've been in California for over 100 years so it's an old Californian family and I was raised you know Christian background my father's Catholic my mother's Greek Orthodox but I was actually if anything more towards
the Greek Orthodox side and then 1977 I
became Muslim which was very early on
for me just at my our way I was 17 in a
17 and I think what from then just began
a journey that took me several different
places you know I studied in the Middle
East and I ended up in West Africa
northern Africa but before you you you
get into your Odyssey and you said that
you became a Muslim at the age of 79
what brought about this change and was
there something extraordinary that was
happening in your life their influences
that or was it just your own no I think
it's interesting because I studies
statistics have shown that conversion of
people to inter religiously but also
intro religiously usually occurs between
the ages of 12 and 21
which people don't realize that but it's
actually more common for people of a
younger age to have religious
inclinations than at an older age and I
think maybe some people tend to find
religion or at least a spiritual
tradition because I was much more
interested in spirituality than religion
at that age I think I that is unusual
though and it's well I had you the heavy
topic I think for me it was a
confrontation with death at an early age
I I was in this serious car accident and
that began a journey of reflection just
about death and the nature of life and
the also coming to terms with the fact
because I think as individuals all of us
at a certain point in our lives suddenly
become aware of our mortality and for
some people I mean you're a physician so
I think you know that for some people it
happens quite late in life you know the
bat never happens or never happens at
all until those last moments like even
in the Quran points that story of the
felon I mean Ryan he yes so people I
think just the idea of mortality is is
something that hit me very early on in
life and and looking death very close
you know up front I think will give
somebody an introspective perspective
and that's what happened to me and and
then it'd be kind of searched because I
you know I was in Catholic schools and
and so I'd been exposed to religion
quite a bit and I really although there
I think there's a lot of positive things
for religion I think there's a lot of
very negative things as well and I think
that can be said about anything
no no any religion and I'm using
religion a very broad sense of how we
live our lives right but particularly
absolutely I feel how religion manifest
in human cultures is is problematic
mm-hmm but that's interesting it will
come back to looking at the religion and
faith and spirituality little bit later
on but so that after having gone through
a experience
I sort of tend to think that a lot of
people who convert have some defining
moment of this kind when do you agree or
well this is another fascinating topic
and if you look at the one of the great
conversions in the Islamic traditions is
all Mountain living a kabob and we know
that he was literally on his way to kill
the Prophet peace be upon him and by the
time he gets to the door I mean there's
a whole side scenario that takes place
of going to his sister's and but in the
same day by the time he gets to the door
he's converting to the the way of Islam
so I conversions that it's a really
unusual thing you're saying that that
it's also this higher dimension I think
there's so many variables involved with
conversion itself that it's very hard
people have asked me how did you become
Muslim and I find that a really hard
answer a question to answer simply
because you're dealing with with such a
multi-dimensional situation and there's
so many variables from from one
perspective we could say that our
journey to whatever unfolds in our life
begins literally with inception and
there's an argument and it certainly is
the Islamic one that it begins prior to
inception so you know we can look at it
materialistically and say will this
happen this happened I was having an
identity crisis which according to
Erikson's psychosocial theory I mean
this is what happens during that period
of time we're trying to resolve our
identity and things like that so we can
look at it from a materialistic
perspective but I don't think it's it
simply can be limited to that although
there's certainly that element exists
and I wouldn't deny that yeah but I
think by the same token the the kind of
experience that sometimes people can can
look back to when they were either
looking at imminent death or you know I
have this conversation with my patients
also sometimes who are going through
that and then they say very clearly that
something intrinsically or internally
happens to them and their whole view of
my life changes well this is called
pepra right I mean is what the Quran
calls pepra which is the inherent nature
and I think what happens which
is fascinating because I my own time of
working in critical care which was for
about four years and dealing with
patients and I was in a cardiac unit so
I was doing with people that were
dealing with heart attacks and and it's
fascinating to see a Vista open up to
people that are confronted with their
mortality and it can be closed very
quickly and often times it's the
physician who is complicit in the
closing of that Vista because they'll
remind them that this is a you know
things are okay all you need to do I
think you know you've had a slight
infarct there's not a lot of damage to
the tissue you can have a good long life
if you just you know cut down on the fat
lower your cholesterol and things like
that and suddenly you see within a
period of a day or so a patient who's
has has had this impact in which they're
saying wow I need to look at my
priorities and what's important in life
and where am I going and what's it and
suddenly they're back on the phone
calling and I think my doctor says I can
get back to work by yeah you know two
weeks or a week and so it's fascinating
so I think vistas do open up for human
being and I at the age of 17 chose to to
you know take yet to enter into that
Vista and really to explore it to its
fullest and it and it ended up in my
conversion to Islam and I think that
somebody would have a very similar
experience as I did and and they might
look at and get interested at that Vista
but turn and get on with life and and I
didn't and it's it's been a defining
moment for me in my life and a turning
point but what but but but you said that
you use that moment then the pathway
open to to get into Islam or why Islam
though at that time if you you well I
think what happened to me is that I
became interested in in after death in
what happens after death and I began to
study various traditions what they said
and I think I was already disappointed
with the Christian tradition in many
ways and partly because just history of
just studying I find you know European
history is is really embarrassing for a
European and
Americans but I got interested looking
at after death scenarios and I think of
all the traditions because my
backgrounds also comparative religion at
in university background was I went into
later obviously yeah because I did the
nursing and then I went into comparative
religion but it what if you look at
comparative religion tradition I think
what you find is that really Islam has
added more to the after death
scenario than any other tradition prior
to it the Oceania T has yeah but they
don't have a great detailed account of
literally what takes place and what I
find fascinating is work like a Raymond
Moody's life after life and different
books and I actually had seventeen went
to see him lecture yeah and I got
interested in your death experiences
because that's really kind of what I had
and I find it fascinating that many of
the experiences that people have are
very similar to what has been defined by
the Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him
as what happens after death and one of
the signs of the latter days of the
human experience according to the
Islamic tradition is that people will be
brought back from death
this is in the hadith literature or the
traditions of the Prophet celada Sena
what the actually we would really get
towards the what Islam says in terms of
the hereafter but I'm just keeping track
of your story presently and so that
after this this this moment of this
defining moment if I may put it you you
looked at Islam because you were
studying I was just looking at various
religion I was looking at different
traditions and particularly with this
after death and you know the Islam it's
changing now but this is 1977 probably
76 77 prior to the Iranian Revolution
and what was happening then and Islam is
just it you know it's the last place
people look in the United States
traditionally when you up in sentences I
mean I you'd look at Hinduism Buddhism
we Shintoism or Taoism before somebody
think about looking at Islam you know
because there's just such a negative
stereotypical image of Islam and the
Muslims and it's also there's this
incredibly anti intellectual backlash
that I mean Islam is what what one of my
father's friends mmm who was a lawyer
educated person in this country they
were just in conversation mentioned that
Islam was an idiot's religion and my
father said well you know my son's a
Muslim actually and and I don't think
he's an idiot
well that's interest but you see you've
brought up another topic which is which
needs some reflection here and that is
that you said the impression of Islam
compared to other tradition is so
terribly negative of course there is a
reason for it and I go it's historical
and third yeah there's a lot of reasons
for it and certainly the historical
tension that existed between
Christianity and Islam for centuries I
mean given the who penned the the
decline and fall of the Roman Empire
said that the the debate he termed the
the war between Christianity Islam is
the great debate and so that their
Europe has always felt the pressure of
Islam at its borders and has had several
wars with the Muslims over the centuries
but I think that that what's happened in
in the West is that religion in general
it was a negative isn't it it has a
negative perception and and part of it
is is that you know the Enlightenment
period of recognizing that the religion
by and large is fairytales and this is
something and this is what a lot of
modern research as has clearly shown
that we're dealing with mythological
conditions in which books were written
and pre-scientific pre rational magical
world views were presented that's only
one aspect of it I mean you you one can
can look at that argument and say well
yes there's a strong argument that it is
it is partly partly there but I don't
think that that one can dismiss the
entire you know substance of any
eh by saying that this is what side to a
lot of scientists do a lot of a lot of
modern people do I mean I think that's
one of the refreshing things about Islam
is that Islam is is it's really kind of
freed religion from a lot of pre
enlightenment thinking
I mean Islam to me is in many ways its
radically postmodern in its approach
because I again because you use the
expression postmodern you're falling
into a growing debate again Odom antics
and whether that term is has been coined
is valid in terms of applying to Islam
however if if you look if you examine
the the poses that are generated one of
the recent polls that I saw was from
from Pew foundation or what-have-you and
in that poll they said that ninety-five
percent of the people in America
believed in God and a substantial number
of them believed in religion now if you
took though this is pepero I mean belief
in God is a is an inherent you part of
the human creature I mean this is we're
stuck with this whether people like it
or not this is something fundamental to
our being is that from the time a child
is is is as little it's looking for the
cause of things it's asking what how why
did that happen what what made that
sound what did this I mean this is
something you see search for cause and
ultimately the great question is how did
we get here what is all this stuff I
mean where this flesh and blood come
from
where did this incredible synergistic
biological species come from you know
who where did this I who designed the I
because we obviously see the form and
function of the I very clearly and it
would indicate that there is some type
of intelligence behind the thing no I
think people reject the statistical you
know billions of years of random cosmic
I think that that whole theory that
that's that science has advanced given
the right set of circumstances the world
can create itself is is by and large
rejected on the basis of what you've
just said either fitara or intuitively
people rejecting this whole notion so I
think that the
is becoming more and more clear but
religion the belief in religion
ultimately to use the masses as some
kind of justification for religion I
think is is not really
most people don't know anything about
their tradition I would grant it that
most Muslims don't know about their own
tradition same there and this is what
what I meant about Islam being radically
postmodern is in the sense that one of
the things that Islam confronts you with
is why are you the way you are I mean
it's you're just a product of the
culture that you were born in this is
something that I became aware of you
know at an early ages Moira's i'ma
Christians because my parents are
Christian the only reason it
accidentally conditioned genital
condition and I really haven't given it
a whole lot of thought I mean I was
taught that there's a Santa Claus I was
taught that there's an Easter Bunny had
I grown up in Sri Lanka or or in it
would have been something in whatever
they call it get fast they scare people
to have the boogeyman they say get a
fast it's this you know bear-like
creature that comes out snatches little
kids that don't do what their parents
say so I am you're going to be defined
by this cultural environment you're in
and this this historical productivity
you know that we see that that produces
people and their worldviews in there is
something that the hold on says think
about this yes no I think that shall you
just be following this thing just
because your parents are doing it no I
think that that aspect of the spirit of
rational inquiry that the Quran
emphasizes to the nth degree it's
something which it is but it what I'm
pointing out here I think is that it's
looking at something not just rational
inquiry it's looking at something really
really deep here which is who are you
how did your being get formulated to the
point where you have all these ideas and
opinions I mean have you really given
these things a lot of fun I mean this is
a radical this is night late 19th
century this is Nietzschean this is late
19th century early 20th century
Heidegger Ian yeah questioning about
ones you know Hyder called your from
only this right but I mean it's
fascinating the Quran Ibrahim the
Prophet Abra