points out the stupidity of worshipping
idols and and and at one point they say
to him
you know well who broke the idols and he
said the big one did it they said the
big one can't do anything so woman why
are you worshiping that says they can't
do any and then it says in the hold on a
beautiful expression Raja
oh it says they returned to themselves
in other words hey he's got a point here
and suddenly this is the Vista opening
up
yeah and they chose to not follow it
they said this is what we found our
fathers doing and this is that is a
radical the other time shift up it's a
paradigm right and you can either
go with it or become the Inquisition
that wants to put out anybody that's
forcing you have to think without you
know the radical implications of the new
paradigm that's emerging now even
pursuing this decision of yours now
you've just had a defining moment or
experience and than you already are
pursuing the study of Islam and then you
later on you you go to college or
actually I I was I was in my first
semester of college and I actually when
I became Muslim I left at Doha and then
I went to England and 38:17 yeah and
your parents just sort of I I had I
actually became Muslim like a month or
so before my 18th birthday and so yeah I
I left up I spent a short time here I
think about six months yeah and then
after that I left and I think initially
you know when you become that when you
do something that radical like changing
your you know your entire way of life
your entire way of thinking and Islam is
not you know Islam is quite monolithic
in its and it's a probe other than
agreeable parting with your parents or
at that time I think innovation no I
think initially it was just difficult
for my parents to understand and both my
parents are university educated are very
broad-minded people
other humanities professor and very
philosophical inclinations in his
worldview and my mother went to Berkeley
and that says enough yeah yeah so um you
know she was very active in the civil
rights movement I mean I grew up that
you know she took me when I was 12 to
the Soledad brothers know that so in the
six yeah yeah
- George Jackson's prison trial just to
see you know what was happened that
there were political struggles going on
in this country
she was very opposed to the Vietnam War
so I did grow up with a lot of awareness
so with a lot of awareness social
awareness very much so and and certainly
about the inequities in in our culture
you know because I'll we grew up in an
area that is you know probably more
wealthier area I mean my family my close
family there's wealth in my favor my
party confirm was not wealthy at all so
I did not grow up wealthy by any means
in fact quite probably a bit more the
other end but idealize about definitely
the area we were in was quite wealthy
and so I think my mother was you know
wanted to make us sure that we
understood that this country has a lot
of inequities so you know my sister was
in Selma Alabama marching with you know
I mean we've that's the background that
we were raised in and the 60 was a
fascinating time in this country you
know Berkeley was right across the
street from where I grew up quite
literally and it wasn't far at all and
we were aware that there were big things
happening you know in in in the States
so I think initially um you know my
parents they were just perplexed more
than anything and and my mother's always
been very accepting whatever any of her
children have done so you went to
England and then you you know I went to
England and I said I was with a
community there and stand and was
studying and they were probably more
spiritually inclined and although there
was a wedding the Nadi's or no
no no not no but probably um there was a
lot of political emphasis to the disarms
of spiritual political movement it's not
it's not politics without spirituality
and spirituality with politics so there
was I think now you said I agree with
that or you I would get very much so
absolutely yeah yeah I mean that's we
have a personal and a social transaction
here yeah so I I spent a few years in
that communion and then what I'm not
doing anything particularly was just I
was studying I think I was studying very
seriously yes but then at a certain
point I I realized that I wanted to
learn Arabic good because I wanted to
get into the sources you know right to
really experience Islam from the source
and I think being at that age because
I'm still only at this point about 22
for me it was still probably one of
these things that could go either way
you know there were a lot of people
dabbling in religions in the 60s and 70s
and you know you become a Buddhist for a
few years then transitions are you know
yeah so people did their religion thing
right it in the sixties and seventies it
was very much in - yeah and early 70s
also yeah you know it started changing
with them you know I mean certainly 69
was a big turning point because of the
Manson thing that happened in this
country but you know and then Jonestown
was a major master disaster to an idea
community that religious community so I
think those things were going on and and
but I definitely wanted to study the the
tradition from the sources and I got the
opportunity from the share who was from
charges yeah Abdullah in Mahmud who was
kind of a minister without portfolio he
was in England at that time he was in
England I met him and I was just
starting to learn Arabic and he I gave
me an opportunity to go to the Emirates
and so I went to the United Arab
Emirates and I entered into a Islamic
Institute there in align and I studied
there and I spent four years there and
then I actually became an imam in a
small mosque in Sharjah in in a line in
LA
yeah and
I lived there and and I'm dude I it was
a very good experience for me and then I
during that time I had met West African
scholars and became very interested in
traditional Islam that was still being
taught in West Africa and I started
studying with them personally and I had
one of them actually ended up living
with me in the apartment that I was
living at and teaching me personally so
I learned a lot during that period and
then I decide to actually go to this
topic
yeah West Africa and that began a whole
nother sure that there you you again you
spent quite a bit of time as I
understand yeah I was overseas almost 10
years yeah and there again you you were
just learning or teaching or no I was I
was uh pretty much committed just to
learning and I was I was a more Edvin
wherewhere was that one mosque in a line
yeah
for because I didn't want to live
anymore in the Institute's dorm because
they were very young I don't think a lot
of more as serious as I was and you know
they were just young high school
students and I was a little older and
and I think I was more serious about
what I was doing not all of our money
certainly there was some very good
people but I didn't like the environment
so I asked somebody who was at the
Ministry of endowments religious
endowments if you know they could work
out a situation where I could be amoled
then and just live in because the
mosques have in those countries they
have living quarters North to them for
the more than and for the Imam so I
didn't take money for the work that I
was doing I had a stipend from the this
Institute not very much but I didn't
ever get back yeah and so they let me do
that I wasn't with then and I lived in
the mosque and then I became after a
year of doing that I've learned but not
very much but I learned you know the
vast portions of the Quran micro alga
could write them recite them well so
they let me become an imam in another
mosque that was near there yeah and
people were very generous to me that you
know they used to bring the food and
things like that but you were now
you know going through several different
cultures all of a sudden within a short
period of time in about five ten years
and you here you were up in Northern
California having exposure to Berkeley
and all the things that you alluded to
going to England where different culture
practically I mean although Western
culture but then you were interacting
with different people now in all of this
your August contact was Muslims and they
were from many different parts of the
world and so what was happiest that that
was a quest well that's a good question
and I think for me it was a big shock
because I think when I became Muslim
here I had no idea because I knew so
little about Islam and about Muslim
cultures and about Muslim peoples and
really vague ideas in my mind about and
then suddenly you know gays all this
Hollywood stupidity starts reading into
the subconscious you know
Saracens with their Sabres at the gates
you know Allah Akbar and Sinbad and all
this nonsense ending out of the
subconscious so yeah that thrust me on
it just having look at a whole and that
was the shock for me realizing further
make you sort of doubt your sanity about
or your validity of going into Islam at
that point the reason I ask that is I
had a good question because I think
there was a a period early on in which I
did start questioning that have I done
the right thing is this really and I
think that is part of what really
inspired me to want to study the
teaching deeply I said you know just to
find out you know I've given up my my
past my my background you know in an in
a sense my country it was a very
alienating experience and and now I'm
kind of wondering you know looking
around at the Muslims and and the
prospects of you know of the Muslims it
was it was kind of discouraging and so
yeah I think that's a good question
because I think I did have that
period it's hard you know we have this
fascinating self-delusional states in
which we try to remember what I actually
happen and we often create you inventing
memories it was a fascinating thing
because I've tried to do this wreath
piece did this really happen or didn't
you know and in many ways I mean I think
this whole idea past lives is just our
own lives it's not about living you know
I mean how many lives have you had you
thought about that as fasiq Justin
thinking about exactly yeah you think
the time when you're a student you know
how that was a past life for me you know
my pre-islamic life was a past life for
me my childhood was a past life so I
think we incarnation is just it's it
happens in our own lifetime you know no
actually the reason I asked also this
question is that I sat across from the
different people who converted and then
ever asked them after conversion whether
they relented at any point whether they
had any doubts it's always that they say
that it happened when they suddenly met
a whole lot of Muslims and with their
diversity and complexity and their
attitudes and their whole interaction to
some of them was very negative and they
said well being really really closed off
and we well I've always had mixed I
think you know on the one hand yeah
there's massive negativity on the other
hand there's all these things that we in
the West have lost that that the Muslims
still have a considerable amounts of
community you know family is still very
strong also just social relations I mean
for instance you know you and I have not
known each other a great deal of time
yet you know already bonds or forms very
quickly amongst the Muslims that don't
happen amongst people in the West very
often is quite rare and yet it's quite
common in the Muslim world so so I think
that you think that that then Aslam is
the sort of leveling factor here which
which reduces these barriers amongst
Muslims
that's yeah that's a good question
I think definitely that that that when
you become a Muslim or being a Muslim is
a very powerful force that is not the
same as being a Christian or not the
same as being a Buddhist or a Hindu or
some other religion I think that that
the the Brotherhood that exists in Islam
is is much more powerful than I've seen
in other traditions that and that is not
to deny that there are communities of
Christians that don't have deep deep
Brotherhood but I'm talking about this
Universal more global outlook
I think the Amish for instance probably
have much better community than you'll
find almost anywhere in the Muslim world
much better support group of a more of
an episode I mean you might find in the
Swat Valley as in in Pakistan or or the
honza's or you know or in the Caucasus
Mountains or somewhere but but you know
communities a disappearing phenomenon I
mean some people consider it irrelevant
Indian from informational period that it
was necessary in agricultural societies
where you need people to stick together
and help each other but when you have
these massive megalithic cities in which
you've got two state apparatus but the
state apparatus is falling apart yes I
mean and now there's this whole modern
you know communitarianism they call
which is an attempt at reestablishing
communities even within inner cities and
you book Bowling Alone you read that I
honestly read that set by a guy from
East Coast apartment was postulating
this whole thing that America is now
becoming a very different what it used
to be where they were bowling club they
will go bowling and there would be
opportunity did read out on day and all
of that so anyway going back again know
I the reason I asked about about Islam
as a leavening sorry you know what hit
me in probably what science means the
word leveling yeah because this you know
Kierkegaard's one of his ideas about the
nihilistic age that we're in is that it
levels every ya know
we use it as a very negative I'm not
writing that word it is it kind of me I
don't know if that was the appropriate
word I not be I think equalizing would
be a better word I think that I think no
the reason I asked also was Malcolm had
that same experience when I mean it when
you might not really he what right what
what really sort of mahadji Hodges is a
definitely leveling exterior but still
he as much as there was that spiritual
bonding which occurs in Hajj and all of
that but to see the humanity interacting
with yourself in at that level of
equality was when I thought what this is
one of the thousand a again you know one
of the this conditions that we're
finding ourselves in is that
provincialism is increasingly becoming a
detrimental to the human condition
because massive groups of peoples of
different backgrounds and cultures are
thrust together in mega cities like Los
Angeles and Burbank in these places and
suddenly it's you know you've got a
Korean for a neighbor or you've got a
Vietnamese for a neighbor and your son
might have been in Vietnam and suddenly
is having to deal with human beings that
are very different from yourself and I
think that's one of the things that
Islam does to us is that it forces us to
deal with other Nastasia nating but is
in fact bond argument and what what you
know the other nurse of color of
language of is broken down by by the the
the sameness of belief that transcends
whatever differences that people do have
at these exterior levels that ultimately
are our basic impulses are pretty
fundamental I mean we're dealing with
people that want the best for their
family this is a universal human
situation we're dealing with people that
want to live harmoniously that don't
want to be violated or or violate others
I mean I think the vast majority of
human beings share some dream
basic virtues and all religions have
those the same core values more or less
into that it's just how do we achieve
absolute this is this is the crisis I
mean we can all agree yeah let's all be
human right but how do you do that how
do we become human this is where the
whole issue becomes problematic and I
think this is where Islam's agenda for
humanizing people is so bad where I
don't know whether you call it agenda
it's a process I think well I'm using
agenda see we're looking at negative
terms again that can be yeah yes I mean
a song does have an agenda and its
agendas to transform people into into
kind of crude assemblance --is of benny
atom or the Adamic species to a true
Adamic being a true human being I mean I
definitely think that conscience with a
conscience and the most radical way of
doing that is how many people pray
together five times a day yes you you're
praying in a line in a rank with people
a black man as I'm on your right side a
white man's on your left side of
chinese' you know and this is something
pretty extraordinary and the whole idea
of having being forced to touch them
yeah you know yes which is not shouldn't
be field force it should be a longing or
as desire for that closeness and that
intimacy that takes place in prayer so
that the social aspect Rama bond yeah no
I think there's no question that in in
all those and universalizing Ramadan
yeah the idea that we're all one fifth
of the world's population is in fasting
yes one month out of the year together I
mean you talk about harmonic convergence
so you spent about ten years and you
know when I came back here you came back
to Northern California yeah actually
Southern California and I studied I was
studying homeopathy and then I was
studying I went into nursing program and
completed nursing school
yes program then I went to I was working
in nursing and then went back to the
University to do a program comparative
so how long that take the um well
altogether it's been about seven years
till you finish that yeah I'm I'm
actually now gonna probably hopefully
next year be doing some graduate work
wonderful so where are you finding all
this time well I just it's making time
for I mean I'm very very time conscious
I'm conscious of the hourglass ticking
away so I just try to utilize it in that
in Santa Fe awesome absolutely man is in
Los with x passage except for those who
don't waste their time that's right so I
just try not to waste time time is very
valuable to me what have you what sort
of relationship now have you got with
your parents is that all wonderful then
absolutely so they're not both my
parents have a great my sister became
Muslim all of my family now has a very
good idea of what Islam is and I've done
it I think hopefully in a way that you
know I'm not condemning them or just you
know just I think they all have an idea
of what my life's about and I think all
of them they're very impressed with you
know I've won I mean it's quite
difficult to have successful marriage in
in this modern 20th century lay part of
it in in California and you know I'm
doing that my children are thanks god
they're a big grand parents and also I
think being or generally they're very
pleased yeah
well that's nice now coming back to a to
Islam and was its impact on your own
life which is it is obvious since you're
quite actively engaged in learning and
teaching and now what difficulties do
Muslims have in presenting Islam to the
west in a proper way because we talked
earlier on about how Islam is perceived
we didn't talk about our own
rown own responsibility of how we have
even to succeed that good points I think
part of it is the fact that I think
Islam is perceived by the Muslims as
well I mean it's not just a
misperception of the Western people
laugh it's also misperception that the
Muslims haven't and part of that is the
fact that that Islam has been reinvented
or you know what what they term in in
philosophy or religious studies redacted
by late 19th century and 20th century
modernist revision errs of Islam people
have been called the reformers some
people called the deformers what do you
mean I mean I don't really like to get
into specific individuals because I
think you're dealing with on the one
hand infiltration into the Islamic
academic Katter which is which is quite
pernicious but on the other hand you're
dealing with just unfortunately people
that were caught up in the flow of what
was happening I mean when the Muslims
were defeated by the colonialist this
was a great shock to the Muslim Ummah
and and I think what what happened is
suddenly they were having to deal with
the fact we've been defeated by the
Europeans who for centuries the Muslims
had looked down on them as being
unworthy of even their consideration and
you can see some of the letters that
were written by Muslim rulers
unfortunately to the Europeans really
with disdain and and and loathing and so
you know I think that one of the things
that God does is but you tears people
with the thing that the you know with
the medicine that they need to be cured
and the medicine of arrogance and pride
you know the medicine is very bitter
medicine it's called humility and and
Submission and and I think what's
happened to a Muslim world that became
very arrogant and very prideful we have
really been humiliated and if we don't
learn this lesson but have you that's
what my question is I'm asking is there
you you see that we are notice have been
rubbed into the grammar and I don't
think we've learned the lesson yeah
that's what that's what I'm saying but
okay but the wonderful thing about life
is it keeps teaching you to say
lesson over and over again unlike school
here where you can keep graduating on
without having learned anything in the
previous year they'll put you to the
next year that doesn't happen in life
life will just keep giving you the same
lesson over and over again and you get
your diploma when you get the point
right and and we haven't gotten the
point because Muslims still think
somehow that I even hate my BA it gives
you some exalted position by the mere
fact that you state that well if that
was true then the hypocrites would
certainly not be in the lowest portion
of hell because they say that too so
Laila him Allah really on the saying
that saying it has no you know no
meaning unless it's emanating from the
knowledge or any bonusing and if it
emanates from the heart it manifests on
the limbs and if it manifests on the
limbs you have a human being that's
called a Muslim and if it's not you have
somebody that the Quran clearly defines
as a hypocrite I'm gonna have somebody
that in fact the way the Quran
articulates is your hide your own allahu
and levena amma no one not only in that
bosom they attempt and it's Mahad in the
Arabic language is an attempt they
attempt to fool Allah and those who
believe and they only succeed in fooling
themselves and there's another version
which is the washed version which says
while my you had your own event for some
and they only attempt to fool themselves
in other words that self delusion
ultimately yeah you can be self diluted
but ultimately you know in reality what
the truth is so then you notice to
summarize that what we are saying here
then is that the prevailing attitudes
within the Muslim communities that they
haven't really really come to grips with
the humiliating defeat and therefore
they will continue to and this is why we
go around Christian bashing which is a
very common Muslim activity you know to
feel good about ourselves and I point
out how horrific the Christians are I
know isn't that there is a change I mean
what is happening though what do you
think let's let's examine that why is it
worship
meanwhile they say the best definition
of do you have the lashavia or they say
the best definition of madness is to do
the same thing over and over again and
expect different results yeah so I think
in one sense we've been afflicted with a
type of madness and unfortunately
post-traumatic stress syndrome is you
know it has deep repercussions and and I
think the Muslim Ummah as a body is
suffering from post-traumatic stress
yeah but then what are the remedies do
we where is the CPR I mean is now
talking about where is the CPR well many
doctors and nurses for that this is a
good point because I think part of our
struggle is the fact that we do not have
anymore institutions that are producing
human beings of a brilliant intellectual
caliber and a spiritual depth that can
not only diagnose but also treat the
patient and traditionally this has been
the realm of the you know the the UNA
muhammadun who are called the Elia the
people that are close to to God in their
knowledge and in their action and those
people traditionally have guided the
Muslims through their devastating
periods of time well you can see quite
literally that in and I don't like to
get into colonial bashing because I
think it's a real dead end for the
Muslims victimization is a dead-end road
but nonetheless there are some important
features that need to be looked at and
one of them is the fact that our our
libraries our scholars are you know
kanakas and and madrasahs and tech aids
and all these places where there was
spiritual preparation intellectual
preparation of the Muslims they were
literally shut down and not only that
but the government's that were created
and social reform in in Syria is a good
book to look at talks about this the
government's that were created were
created by the colonialist and this is
the fifth column which ultimately I've
never seen historically and historians
would obviously verify this or negate it
but I personally have not seen
historically where there was a
conquering of a people without that
fifth column element and this is why the
Quran says home that I do follow
MacArthur home a lot that the hypocrites
they are the true enemy
and may Allah destroy them because these
are the people that have been complicit
with the the colonial enterprise and the
neo-colonial and we can only say why say
neo-colonial because as far as I'm
concerned colonialism's never ended it's
just changed form because you know the
chameleon-like nature of the West is one
of this most extraordinary features that
it's able to change its its its former
location and this is what media and
television is all about yeah well that
is now cultural imperialism we will come
to that but then what you're again
pointing out is that we are indeed in a
double jeopardy if I might put one but
one is one is that we feel that there is
a conspiracy that the rest has on one
hand on the other hand we do not seem to
acknowledge that we are no more the
power and we are nothing in terms of
amounting to anything we're a scheme of
things right well neither was the
prophets of Medina in the seventh
century you shouldn't forget that no and
the Quran very clearly says come and
Fiat an idea a lot about fear I think at
the beginning that how many times have a
small faction defeated a great factor by
the permission of God and so we have you
know the Muslims that they're obeying
their teachings and practicing then they
have a permission to have an authority
which is very powerful we shouldn't
underestimate it you know but I think
it's you know it's a good point that
that if you if you look you know what
why isn't anything happening and I think
part of it is the fact that that if you
look at the disease what I feel the
greatest articulation of it from the
from the Islamic perspective is the word
itself which is used to designate
everything that is against Islam and
that is Julia and Julia is a word that
in its root meaning means ignorance and
this is the whole argument of Islam that
you you reject the truth out of
ignorance that you only do things that
are bad out of ignorance and this is
Socratic teaching as well I mean even
the Europeans have this idea that that
you know that people don't do bad things
if they really knew
what they were doing and this is part of
what Islam does is it is is ill you know
or what God does through Islam is
listening to open the eyes of people to
let them see and one of my favorite
things that's happened in recent popular
cultures this Kathie Lee Gifford
incident and there was a wonderful
picture of her in Newsweek that
obviously got out some television
broadcasting which is where she's got
this horrified look like you know a
shocked look when she finds out that
she's been supporting a child labor this
whole country is supporting child labor
the clothes were wearing our supporting
child labor the tennis shoes that we jog
in are supporting child labor the soccer
balls the baseball bats that we hit our
baseballs with I mean the whole thing is
supporting child labor don't blame
Kathie Gifford blame the whole country
you see and this is what people don't
want to deal with is that no we have to
look deeply at what's going on what
children and this is this what you're
saying that I mean at the example that
you've used is is is of how should I say
of abusing people or of abusing people
to to create the to support the
consumerism or what-have-you but getting
away from from the people that brings us
to the issue justice and economic
justice and the Quran we'll get into
that but let us talk a little bit too
now of why is it that looking at all of
the the Muslim countries 50 and odd 55
56 I don't know what whatever then I
whatever the number is they've grown is
there still isn't either an awareness
one or acknowledgment or formulation of
some kind of vision or strategy what is
our world view now well this is part of
the crises again I mean we're we're an
Ummah in search of a world view one of
the things that David shidduch in his
vision and the vision of the song
wonderful book this is one of the things
that he puts forward is that the Muslims
have lost sight of a Quranic world
you you know the veldt and shown the
relevance of what you know it's not this
what guy eaten in the Islamic destiny
man calls a Boy Scout religion this is
what we've been reduced to thinking that
Islam is it is going around doing good
deeds no it has a way of viewing the
world of vision and if you don't have
the vision of Islam no matter how
sincere your efforts are you're not
going to be anything other than a
glorified Mormon or a glorified you know
Jehovah's Witness or somebody who's out
because they're doing good deeds I mean
that doesn't the the moral element of
Islam is not what makes us unique as a
community because every community has a
moral element no it's it's the vision
it's what the tradition was called the
Arpita it was the understanding that
islam imparted to human beings which
enabled not only the morality to
function but also for there to be an
absolute clarification of what exactly
morality is because there's a great deal
of confusion in our modern world for
instance but that is confusion within
the muslims to loot li because we don't
have this thing anymore
no you're asking not only that but the
thing that that is interesting now is
that there are muslims and they are
pious Muslims wonderfully powerful if I
absolutely but then if you look at that
if you look at the whole world of Islam
at present these Muslims which who are
pious some of them very few of them are
also actively engaged in a social
emancipation right so all just the rest
of the rest of them well this is the
separation of Deen from Milda because
this LOM has these two concepts it has
the personal which is deemed this is our
relationship with God but also has the
Milda which is the collective group of
what our goal is as a collective body
and the goal of the collective body is
the establishme