Interview with Tim Winters (1995)

Transcript Details

Event Name: Interview with Tim Winters (1995)
Transcription Date:Transcription Modified Date: 7/15/2019 9:00:14 PM
Transcript Version: 2

Transcript Text

I have with me a very dear friend and

colleague an American Muslim whom I've

known and admired for perhaps 15 years

now is that the food for the year the

last we first met he's here on a lecture

tour in England very briefly and I'm

going to ask him a few questions about

Islam and Muslims in the West but

focusing particularly on how we get this

most precious of commodities I'm how do

we become scholars or how even nowadays

do we find scholars many people

including I think chef Pham's I believe

that they are something of an endangered

species so how is it that young Muslims

in the West particularly can overcome

this obstacle we don't have proper

institutions of our own so can we travel

to the Islamic world should we do the

traditional way by sitting at the feet

of polymer or should we put our faith in

these great new Islamic universities

that are appearing in all sorts of

countries and I perhaps associate hands

if I could start with that I know that

you've been perhaps one of the last true

advocates of the traditional practice of

a RIF Allah the atala billon we know

that the great medieval anima from a

mammal Bukhari to so many of the great

scholars even in the 19th century all

always spent all of their lives

traveling now they would have liked even

seen her was was well known for having a

thousand camels who have carried his

books wherever he went and use somehow

in this age of mass communications seem

to be trying to maintain this tradition

why do you think that's necessary when

we have Islamic universities why should

we go and find a scholar in say the

depths of Mauritania where I gather

you've been rather than going to a new

university and studying in one place I

think it's it's interesting you brought

that up the idea but I know and it's

certainly something that classical

scholars often wrote books called errata

is then and they would talk about their

experiences traveling and the importance

of actually leaving one's place of birth

in fact Imam and Junaid the famous

scholar and

what they call him the Imam of the to

the five attaining the two groups

because he was both a scholar but he was

also deeply spiritual that man in a

spiritual educator and he talks about

that a man's Iman really is complete

when he enters into a state of Allah

which is estrangement from one's own

land and and I think he's getting that

from the hadith that the Prophet SAW

lisen him said in Sahih Muslim that

Islam began a strange thing and it

returns a strange thing and he said

blessed are the strangers and our Eve as

you well know is one of the meanings is

to be in a strange land where you're not

you're not from and so the idea of going

out is is really you become a hadith and

that in itself is a spiritual station in

Islam to be a hub and what you do is is

attempt to find kindred spirits and I

think also there is a blessing I found

that there was a blessing in setting out

because there is a hadith that the

prophet sal i said i'm said men Sarika

Paria Pagnotta me sophia

el faro fisa BD day hatha yoga whoever

sets out on a path and said ik is so

Luke whoever sets out on a path seeking

knowledge is in the path of God in other

words like a Mujahid somebody uh

struggling in the path of God until he

returns and then there's another

tradition that says that Allah has taken

it upon himself to provide for the

seeker of knowledge so there's I think

one of the wonders for me of literally

setting out was to see that you know my

provision came from places unexpected

because I really when I went out I did

not have the money I didn't really have

the means to take care of myself

and yet I saw just really wondrous

things happen without ever being forced

to ask or beg even though the

traditional scholars consider that

acceptable for a seeker of

sharukh knowledge to ask wealthy people

to help them while they were seeking on

it really never it never became an issue

with me so I I just think there's a lot

of great benefits in doing that it's

kind of setting out literally into into

the world and trusting in Allah and

inshallah with the noblest of intentions

which is to to acquire a knowledge you

must have met some extraordinary people

during our travels Ryan we have any

regular experiences or individuals stand

out in your memory I think we've met

that we we share some common remarkable

people that we've met and and this is

another one of the blessings is that we

are in an age I mean I I like in this

age too in terms of what a human being

is I think you know in a lot of ways

we're 2.2 people now and say this is

human society this is what human beings

are for me is like somebody going to a

into a room with a decrepit old man on a

bed like 80 years old and literally

defecating and urinating in his own bed

and completely incapacitated to say that

this is a human being in other words not

to recognize that it was once a young

man in his youth and vigor and in a lot

of ways the age were living in is like

that it is that the state of human

beings is really so horrifying so going

out and literally seeing individuals

that still represent you know Benny Adam

you know that the Adamic man and the

Adamic woman and they still exist but

unfortunately many of them are literally

hidden I'm saying I only said that

people in a tradition that are called ìa

relates that people will always allow

will always have his head judge his

proofs on the earth and he said either

Aziz Omaha either outwardly

in a state of dignity and strength or -

love more or you know obscured and

hidden out of fear and unfortunately

this is that type of age where

people's adapt their their spiritual

manners have become so detestable that a

lot of really righteous people out of

mercy really to the Ummah have withdrawn

because of the hadith whoever is a

harmful of a friend of mine I declare

war on him and so for that reason many

of the scholars have said that in times

of great distress oftentimes the people

of Allah will literally they'll

disengage from the society until

conditions change so that that for me

was a great blessing mapa has the man

that I studied with in Mauritania is

lives in the middle of the Sahara Desert

and it wasn't just his knowledge I mean

like Imam maddox mother said to madacorp

B'Elanna when he he went as a child to

even hormoz learn from his courtesy

before you learn from his knowledge and

just seeing this man it's one thing to

read about the ancients and to read

about people that spent their nights in

prayer like abu hanifa praying fudger

with the ruler of Asia for 40 years or

something like that you could we can

read these you know had react of

hagiographies about these great holy and

things like that

but to actually see a human being that

embodies that is really shocking because

what you realize is these aren't

mythologies that we're reading about

that these people did exist and that is

is something for me that I think that's

one of the greatest benefits that I have

gotten from meeting these people is to

realize one that the potential of a

human being what we can rise up to and

to to recognize that that that our path

the path of Islam is is a path that

elevates and dignifies and exalts the

human being this is something that's so

difficult for particularly young people

I think brought up in the West isn't it

because the educational matrix here

stresses so much the imparting of

information and the ability to make

konzern into

judgments on the basis of that

information but the idea of education as

being process of osmosis were by or not

just packed with facts but your

potential as allows halifa on the earth

as beautiful dignified compassion of

being something that you learn from your

teachers or learn from your society

that's never stressed monster I've

noticed a lot of young Muslims in

England they have not just lost in many

cases the traditional beautiful adapt

that politeness compassion that way of

being that the metabolism of the

traditional Muslim because of the school

they've been contacted but they've even

lost any access to individuals who can

help them to recover that you can learn

from books but as you well know you

can't really learn Islam from a book you

learned it from a human being a there's

a harbor didn't an Islamic from above it

from the the radiant umbrella of the

Prophet would somehow in 23 years of his

presence took them out of Stone Age

barbarism of the worship of idols and

this crude magical practices you could

imagine and turned them into these

radiant Saints a hundred thousand

defender proceeded to go out and change

the world the entire world there are 23

years just of his presence had that

effect right and on and that

traditionally have tried to be heirs of

that traditionally and pass on some of

that light they've gained from their own

teachers and a continuous chain going


I always thought that one of the most

astonishing things I encountered in

studying with as I occasionally did real

traditional Ajith scholars was this

institution about hadith and also that

which you've almost didn't believe when

you read about it in the classical texts

right that somebody cannot just say oh

this hadith is narrated in Bukhari with

such a narration and it's hadith is

noted by Dale and me or someone with

another narration and I have my own it's

an ad for it and then the scholar sits

down and I've seen them do it but it had

definite word it brought him a whole lot

on his shift will learn on Isha for them

and they mentioned perhaps 18 or 20 or

25 people going right back to the

Prophet Allah Salih - and they know all

of these individuals and you've seen

that chain great scholars like you

number than Hadji RA and the soil to use

their own teaching didn't die with their

death that continues today that's one of

the most impressive experiences I think

that I ever ever had doing my my

unfortunately few encounters with with

real additional added scholars but of

course it's vanishing and one of the

great problems we have is that the anima

are getting old and the younger

generation have no access to them and

there are no institutions and channels

whereby the wisdom and also that this

sense of being of the older generation

can be transferred transmitted to the

new veneration of Mosul

I didn't want your opinions are of the

Islamic universities that have been

popping up in various Islamic countries

I studied for a while at al-azhar

and the Tsar was unfortunately

nationalized by NASA who almost closed

it down but one of the nasty things he

did was to abolish the traditional

system of other education whereby every

student was attached to a particular

shape somebody who have you as possible

making sure that he went to the right

classes that he was making good progress

and also his moral and spiritual more

yes Rose was being improved constantly

every single student in the US have had

a shake on sometimes they were quite

terrifying sort of hit masterly figures

with big sticks and then people are

scared of them but as our produced whole

regiments of scholars for the entire

Ummah who are not just bearers of

knowledge but also bearers of the

beautiful adult of Islam tomorrow that

NASA abolished that and he put all of

the students particularly the non

Egyptian students in this great concrete

encampments on the outside of Cairo

he actually demolished a cemetery and

built this just student hostel on top of

it 4,000 students and they just play

around some of them are listening to pop

music some of them well it's quite

appropriate they built it over a salad

do you know and the environment there is

occasionally they come back with a

certain amount of knowledge but they do

not go back with witness of wisdom and

that the bearing of the traditional

Muslim or that has been lost so I don't

know if you think that that's problem

with all of the Islamic universities or

whether they're perhaps some exceptions

I think that that you know we had a

lamented assess systems fascinating

system the you know the word itself

madrasah is not only does it mean a

place of a lesson like it's the noun of

place in Arabic but also dasa which

means to be effaced you know to it has

the idea of you know data set an earth

are the traces literally disappeared and

part of them at essa was that the the

ego or the nafs was effaced the the the

crude you know the jewel literally what

the teachers were doing were carving in

fact they say a talented sila cannot see


for the hotel the teaching a youth is

like carving in stone and this is really

what they were doing was was taking this

Johar this essence that has the coal

around it and chiseling away all of this

black coal until you have this diamond

this this precious jewel that then can

go out and and literally illuminate like

you said and transform the places where

they came from but the the system was

beautiful in that you had literally

small method asses all over the Ummah

and the youth of the the villages would

study in these these cook tab and would

memorize the Quran and memorize basic


the texts like in Konya and hadith and

even I shot for instance in Morocco and

North Africa in basic fill and then they

would take the extremely bright students

from that group that showed great

promise and they would be then sent to

the major areas of learning like in

Morocco would have been fast so the more

Italians the scholars of the Sahara

would study in the mattresses there

which are now considered these producing

these great allama and they're the first

to admit that they're not automatic this

system that they had was really a

preparatory school for the real

universities of Islam and so they would

go then to fast as a tuna to Clemson to

us how to the nizamiah schools by the

dad Syria the AMIA all these different

or the josiya all these different

schools and there they would after

memorizing quite a considerable amount

of textual material they would learn

not only the a dub but also how to how

to literally take this material and

apply it with intelligence contextually

and this is something that that I my

experience of the the Muslim world is

that we have people that oftentimes

learn a considerable amount of

information it's certainly theirs in the

Muslim world there's much more emphasis

still on rote memorization then say the

Western universities now which teach

more learning kind of theories and

understanding how things work and are

formulated rather than having the wrote

that you can keep your calculator to

plug in but just understand how how the

thing works

but despite that fact what what I'm

witnessing and I I don't know if you'd

agree with this but what I'm seeing is

that we we have yet to deal with the

issues of our age we have yet to to be

able to take the Islamic all of this

massive amount of information and

literally apply it to the age we're

living in in terms of dealing with the

issues of the age and healing the the

diseases of the age because that's what

it was sent down for and I think it's

it's like the story about the student

who stayed with the Sheikh for years and

the chef used to go and he would do the

rakia on the people and and and read

Fatiha and then use his spittle and they

would get well that usually immediately

and when the Sheikh had died they went

to the student and and so the student

read the fact it had then put the

spittle on the person nobody got well

and they asked him what's the matter and

he said well the fact it has still the

same but I think the spinels changed so

you know I think this is part of our our

problem is that the information is all

still there but but the

and women that possess the wisdom

because in the quran when a law says leo

anna muhammad kita bow and hikmah that

it wasn't simply the book that was to be

taught but also the wisdom you know in

order to implement the book contextually

because this is something a lot of

muslims especially our youth don't

understand is that a great deal of our

literature is contextual and the muslims

understood this long before Wittgenstein

and you know linguistics theories of

contextual you know the contextual

nature of language that they had these

many of the hadees are contextual and

you can't simply take a hadith and apply

it universally that it was a whole

science of as feble ruled as a rule the

exam be dropped from the curricular of a

lot of Islamic institutions I've noticed

around a very peculiar development but

it's essential to the understanding of

the Hadees we have young people in this

country now as you don't no doubt in

there who think that they can derive the

fit directly from that rather appalling

translation into English it's a high

helper for a variety of a Quran in

English and same book volume in English

then if you want the answer or fact I'll

just open it to the relevant page pull

out a hadith and there you go was of

course anybody who tried to do that in a

traditional Islamic state would

immediately be hauled before the call D

and giving twenty lashes for his cheek

exam yeah this is how it's always

developing that they think that that is

that's the correct procedure

but do you think there's any hope I mean

what would be your advice if you were

confronted by say keen intelligent

eighteen-year-olds Muslim in England who

wanted to study the Deen what would be

your answer

well this happens to me a lot is that I

really people come to me because and

really my education I think you know you

would certainly admit this as well is

that really you know our education have

been extremely limited but because we've

had some you know background in an age

where many people have had none or even

less that it might appear impressive to

some people but I feel very impoverished

in terms of my own Islamic education one

of the things about hatch says is about

knowledge --is that not only do you have

to have a sound teacher but you you have

to have a long life to is it's almost

one of the prerequisites for acquiring

the knowledge of this teaching because

it's so vast but people do come to me

and and say I really want to study it's

not what should I do for us I think when

we became Muslim because we can we became Muslim similar you became listen what year 79 said okay I became Muslim 77 and and I think we hit the you know just the beginning of this you know the Iranian Revolution was just happening in


there was a just a lot of changes

transformations in the Muslim world it

was very easy to live in many Muslim

countries as a Muslim there was no

threat about going to the Masjid having

a beard was not problematic studying

these type things unfortunately because

of the politicized

atmosphere that exists now in the Muslim

Ummah and really what's happening

there's kind of like the 60s in America

during the Vietnam War where

universities ended up being kind of a

war zones ideological war zones and this

is what's happening in the Muslim world

and unfortunately unlike America where

you have although it's you know it's

it's certainly got its own internal

structures that are rather totalitarian

but nonetheless you know Kent State is

one of the few examples where somebody

was actually shot whereas in the Muslim

world we're dealing with some very

ruthless tyrants and dictators and

secret polices and these type of things

that deal with people with impunity and

really are too concerned about what the

what the public opinion might be about

how they deal with dissidents and these

type of things and the other thing it's

unfortunate that I think that students

become dissidents because I think

although it's absolutely important to

have our own moral and ethical

perspectives and understandings for a

student who set out on the path of

knowledge they have to commit a good

amount of time to that and the

abstractions of the world which have

always existed you know we can become we

can become

Cara in in the world I mean you know the

the Muslims have been for over a hundred

years now in massive turmoil political

turmoil and it's very easy to get caught

up in these things as youth but if

somebody's actually committed to

learning something to be beneficial to

the you know to the OMA this is what

we're talking about so unfortunate I

think in the Muslim world right now in

most of the countries it's a very cool

Desai's atmosphere I think there are

still some shifts like you mentioned

that one of the frightening things that

they are getting old when I was in

Mauritania 10 years ago studying I was

in a town there called ghetto which is

well known a traditional town of

dominant tribe there's called tisha

canít and the very scholastic and

spiritual tribe when I was there there

was about 11 or 12 brilliant AHA Matic

yellow man that had mattresses when I

went back I think nine had died and you

could see the results of their deaths in

the village which was one of the most

impressive places I've ever been to

going back there last year I was really

shocked to see the disintegration that

had taken place in just such a short

time young people listening to Michael

Jackson and I mean all of this madness

going into a place that had really been

preserved so you know I'm taking a long

time to get to this but I really think

one of the most important things for us

at this stage is to develop institutions

within the West we this is an imperative

that really we don't have an alternative

we must develop I think there's now an

experiment going on in France right now

there's kind of an attempt to to do this

I don't know how much about it and I

don't know how successful it's going

right now but we there is a modicum of

freedom in in the West that that enables

people to to set up institutions and

study and

these things unfortunately in the vast

majority of the Muslim world that that

freedom does not exist and and Islam and

particularly the quote-unquote Islamists

are a major threat to a perceived threat

I think a perceived threat to the

thought the interests of the West as

well as the the governments in the East

and North Africa in these places so for

an 18 year old right now

I think what I would if there unmarried

and if they if they're able to then I

think there are still some places where

they can go if they're committed to at

least six years I think anything less

would be I mean there might be some

benefit in going less not learning

Arabic but I think we need people that

really are committed and and I want to

emphasize at this point I really don't

think I think you probably agree with


the goal of Islam is not to become an

atom quote-unquote it's certainly a

wonderful achievement and one of the

higher callings if not the highest of

all callings but many of the limo were

not many of the Sahaba for instance they

were not that remember they were not

scholars but they were people that what

they did know they acted wholeheartedly

on it they had absolute sincerity

conative in what need was not a scholar

he was a warrior that that was the gift

that that Allah gave that man and it

manifested I will daughter was a an

aesthetic and a deeply spiritual Muslim

who was an inspiration to anyone who saw

him and that was that was what he did

Abu Huraira was was a scholar he was a

high D scholar this was where it wasn't

the Mufti law saying he was not a yeah

whatever is not one of the the Muftis um

even my soul was a Mufti as well as

being a scholar and a judge on what I've

been a cop I was a judge he was a

brilliant scholar SATA Heine is of

course one of the greatest you know the

shining monuments of intellectual

achievement historically the first

intellectual of Islam as he's been

called cuz he was just such a profound

thinker you know as well as being a

deeply spiritual person

Aisha was a great scholar she was not

only a scholar in Islamic matters but

she was a scholar in Jahi poetry she

knew the lineages just a remarkable


and a remarkable human being you know

setting aside her femininity she's just

she's a remarkable human being anyone

male or female that achieved what she

would achieve would be you know honored equal you


yes that's interesting isn't it I mean

we tend to in retrospect assume that

Islamic scholarship has always been very

firmly to preserve the command but right

at the beginning of this time it wasn't

really not a present and even if you

read some of the other part works these

vast biographical dictionary of medieval

scholars the scholars of hadith you'll

find that quite a few of the respected

hadith scholars of Muslim Middle Ages

that we can use that for anyway they

were teaching publicly you think of them

Kareena my was here for instance the

great railway at Versailles handlebar a

all the great chains of transmission for

samples I tend to go through whether you

think of people like Citizen was

adopting eighth century Cairo who knows

the truly great for the heart into his

consultant scare away the bottom at that

time who example to sit at her feet to

ask what that was but more recently that

seems to have died away so do think that

this obligation to study the online

method is long would you so open for any

people stick

I feel planes to our argument in this

one the hadith that's related he'd been

major related by happy I believe relate

said that seeking knowledge and there

the it's palpable and it has the you

know the instrument of definition

definitive article there means sacred

knowledge which would include key

Fayette you know the collective duties

as well but but the primary that I mean

is what really is being said there is


knowledge is which are sacred knowledge

is not the worldly knowledge is which

are key fire the Hadees says every man

and Muslim or muslima

and the prophets all I said I'm rarely

uses the male and the female together

unless it's an emphasis in order that

it's not misunderstood and that's one of

the times when he did stress the female

component because one it was very alien

to their culture for women to be

educated all modeled Ilana's recorded as

saying you know that we considered women

similar to animals

prior to Islam this was the Arab

perspective and there was just radical

transformation and I think it's really

fascinating one of the Western

criticisms of Islam is the idea of two

witnesses two females to one male yeah

and what I find really fascinating about

that is that in Hadi if if the woman

fulfills the five qualifications of a

sahih hadith if she is a Baba

you know meticulous in her narration

idea that if he's just in her actions

that there's no shavoo there's no

weaknesses in in in her transmission and

is snod goes all the way back to the

Prophet that she won more Haditha is

accepted completely and certainly

witnessing about a hadith is that is the

highest of all in Islam and so I think

you know that's a very clear indication

that the two Diwan has nothing to do

with a woman's capacity it's more really

just a social allowing for a and it's

really an excuse for women not to have

to get involved in Affairs that would

preoccupy them for more important

Affairs and I don't really know anybody

that wants to bear witness against

people I certainly don't I mean it's not

I would I've always find that odd it's

kind of people say you don't see people

lining up to to be on jury duty or you

know so yeah absolutely women one of I

think probably one of the greatest

causes for the state of our Ummah now is

the fact that our women are deplorable

uneducated and they raised the children

in Mauritania which although it's

certainly not an example for economic

flourish Minh it's still a place where

Islam is practiced on a on a large scale

one of the things that that I noticed in

the children

and they've been healthiest children I

have seen in the Muslim world is that

the many of the women are scholars now

one of the things that's fascinated me

was that the women particularly

emphasized Syrah they learn Syrah and

and then what they do is transmit these

story instead of like reading ridiculous

bedtime stories and the children they

tell the stories of the the Sahaba of

the Aldea you know the great scholars

and they inculcate this in their

children and there are also oftentimes

scholars of the DRH they know like the

neck and all the lineages and the names

of the Sahaba and who they were related

is fascinating so we absolutely need

female scholars

I mean Wesen what dude was a scholar in

African American scholar and in America

and she

you know she talks about the need for

the the feminine perspective being

presented and I think there's there is a

validity to that to that critique

although I don't agree with like faulty

memory she's whole ideas the problem

isn't it everybody assumes they're

jumping on the feminist bandwagon this

is a Trojan horse of westernization

relation with Muslim family after nature

but clearly on the basis of Anderson and

at the practice of the early Muslims it

just supposed to be a model there's so

many examples I think this accident

women who didn't just stay at home spin

but they were fighting with the mayor

you're doing all these things yeah and I

said I should think of what 15% of the

great hadith of Islam have women as key

figures in this nuts all right guys is

one of the seven that of the Sahaba that

relate over 2,000 abuse in in Tulsa has

one of them set up as another green for

do so absolutely it's imperative you

know if I mean if we're going to

reinvigorate this omma with any

just with with any anything what we have

to have women that are going to I mean

you know when I fought him a metal

neecy's argument you know is that no

where are the women in Islam I mean to

me I think that the Matic is is not

possible without the mother of Malik I

mean you know the Omaha to reach out you

know the mothers of man you know these

were great women absent and and and they

produced these men because we know the

importance of the first seven years

which is almost solely the the mother's

domain in in all cultures but it wasn't

just that was that they rules out

teaching and the motherless they were in

their mattresses absolutely look at even

our circus history of Damascus he names

about a thousand of his teachers and

eighty of them were women that's already

what the sixth century where is that in

do is there any equivalent that in in

European and Christianity absolutely not

I mean Julian of Norwich or something

they were so excluded from from life so

well I think they didn't think that they

actually had intellects for years I

think it was the seventh century they

had to cancel the Poitier and they

decided to amend it might we have souls

thanks they were sort of like household

goods and that is you get a washing

machine but in those days you'd have had

a wash or a woman and they had no more

souls and did a washing machine

I mean it is but I think China is

probably the only other place where they

did have female scholastics I don't know

about India in the the pre-islamic

Indian culture but I know China did have

some you know some female scholars but

certainly I know even high John when he

went to Damascus to study hadith he had

four teachers and three were women and

in the South character how father I

think there's about 500 women mentioned

from the yeah there seems to be

particularly Finity to hadith literature

it's interesting that isn't it yeah one

of the things interesting to me is that

there's not a lot of literature books

written by by women which i think is

interesting and i think one of the

reasons for that in Mauritania for

instance there are many women that are

actually scholars that do not write and

actually literally do not write they

their husbands would write the things

that they memorized on the door and

things like that like the the wife of my

teacher who masha'Allah she's a puppy

and in the Maliki v and she's a new

grammar very well and had memorized

two-thirds of the Quran

and we're still studying at about the

age of 65 still memorizing things but

she she did not write and she literally

never learned how to write but read a

sentence to someone as well isn't it

right so so what would we say to this 18

year old we didn't really deal with that

you've got a bit into this extraordinary

feat of memorization that seems to be

scenic or non-traditional scholar and a

lot of young people say nowadays

humorous book and having been brought up

with that faculty activated in Brian can I really study Islam seriously if I simply don't have the ability just to memorize hundreds of pages of texts I think what this is a really interesting point that's fascinated me and I've done a lot of reading about Western research into memories and I've even read like Cicero's you know de memoriam and some

of the Greek like Aristotle has a short treatise on memory and the idea of the loci and the the memory techniques that were used mnemonics and acronyms and these things certainly the Renaissance produced some extraordinary phenomenal examples of the human capacity to

memorize one of the things that we are

not taught in the West is techniques of

memorization and this was something that

I learned from the more Italians mnemonics is used very often in Mauritania just to give two very quick examples it's certainly used in in touch weed out of a lot of debt you know that's everybody learns that but for instance in memorization of Quran there's a lot of mutashabihat ayat and and there's mnemonic devices used for that in for instance the woman them yeah come demands that a lot without coming with a caveat on what I learned

was Khalifa is away goes catheter and

body moon fancy appointment so you learn

a new modoch to recognize you know the

sequential and another one in Serato

stuff would be falcon which would be

faster homebody moon capital machine

alone and these are ways of learning how

to memorize that we're not taught in in

western unfortunately and a lot of it

there's not a whole lot of emphasis put

on memory met you know memories feats of

memory are really quaint and oftentimes

their carnival acts you know are there

you know on television news we have this

guy David Letterman in America it'd be

kind of like something he'd have on you

know his television program is this kind

of thing that people are gonna you know

laugh at or marvel at or something but

there's not this idea of learning the

the knowledge of the past that it needs

fierceful daughter Latino today I mean

the Quran says it's in the breasts of

those who have been given knowledge and

part of that is literally memorizing and

one of the things I think we have to do

and you know we're both fathers so I

think it's something that you've

obviously thought about is you know the

what what's literally taking place in

the brain within the first eleven years

actually it's now in

in Neurology they found that 11 years is

when all of the myelination is taking

place and at the age of 11 it literally

stops so and memory is one of the most

potent ways of developing of developing

fields within the brain itself and

basically at 11 we have what we're going

to use for the rest of our life that's

what's been developed and I think memory

prior to 11 is absolutely essential the

the main emphasis I'm going to talk

about this matter on today I would talk

about this but the main emphasis for

children should be memorization there

should be very little emphasis on fun

actual ratiocination and spatial

reasoning and things like this I mean

even Piaget and in their own Western

educational theorists have have really

proven a lot of this stuff and this was

the traditional approach that you know

you memorize when you're young and then

you learn the the what they call the

awfully adds you know the the

intellectual sciences of dialectic

subjective and month of logic and these

type things learning how to think and

and and then you begin the process of

after about fifteen or sixteen is to

learn the tools whereby you can actually

begin to reflect and think deeply on on

much of what you've memorized in terms

of a 18 year old who's coming in who has

not memorized sometimes almost nothing

both in English and in other languages I

think that they we need to literally

learn the techniques for increasing our

memory I mean I I believe and even

though that there's kind of it's a moot

point amongst Western theorists whether

or not

memory can be developed and also why

some people have brilliant memories and

other people don't

certainly in Mauritania there are

families that are known to have very

powerful memories and they actually

believe that there is a inherited aspect

to memory and I think that's that's true

but there's also another aspect which

I've always had kind of maintained my

hope is what the the Muslims of Trisha

he called them feta which is an opening

and we know now I think in a lot of the

the brain research is that that we do

actually memorize everything we see in

here and but it's locked away in the

subconscious and we really don't have a

direct access to it it's what they call


in arabic estaba the ability to to

retrieve that and retrieve to bring

present what is known and even Tamiya

was was notorious for this ability he

had this phenomenal a phenomenal ability

to use the Quran as a Hodja and of proof

and and I've seen this where some

scholars have their capacity to do that

is not as great they kind of go through

this scanning where you ask them and I

know don't they'll kind of go table

discussed eternity exactly it's like a

cd-rom there you know there's it's not

as fast as others so you've got to

eighty-six memories 386 and 486 and so I

think that's that's one aspect but I

don't think we should despair of it I

found personally although I really don't

consider my memory to be that great but

I found personally that there is a

facilitation that that Allah gives to

his Deen I have found memorizing for

instance do eyes of the Prophet had

these verses of the part on that trying

to memorize comparable treaties or

amounts of words in my own language is

extremely difficult and I don't know it

has to do with the cadences of the

Arabic but I personally really do

believe that there is a divine

facilitation and certainly the most

important element there is is intention

is pure intention so I think that people

can still do that even at the age of

eighteen nineteen twenty

I personally have known people that have

memorized the entire Quran as adults and

very worthy and honorable about a task

to set out and to accomplish Nia is the

key thing I have the right Nia the door

somehow swing open in front of you and

if you don't but do you have the best

academic institutions behind you

you simply don't make any query Alvis

Ida Hina's begins the book with


book of intention the are buying of

Immelman Olli begins with the hadith of

intention Sahih Muslim begins his office

with I mean Nia is that's ultimately

what it is

I think that one of the beautiful Hadees

is whoever learns knowledge to impress

the scholars or to amaze the ignorant

people that you know there's no he just

take a seat in the Hellfire there's no

that's not why why we should be seeking

this knowledge you know it should be

part of it is really to make the

intention to preserve to become a

preserver of the Deen of Allah because

the Deen of Allah is not preserved in

books and it never has been is preserved

by human beings that are willing to to

really struggle and and struggle against

their own selves I mean it's easy to

come home and turn on the TV and sit sit

back and watch and it's I think it's

worse here because BBC programming is is

more sophisticated and more interesting

so you can convince yourself you're kind

of learning something but but it's very

easy just to to sit back and be


by the age but it's like Neil postman's

book I'm using ourselves to death you

know that that's ultimately what this

culture does it just amuses its populace

to death and we're talking upon that

life wasn't created for an amusement or

a pastime and you know ultimately we're

we should be people of I say the Muslims

should be a Mujahid wished ahead you

know somebody who's a man of and on a

woman of jihad and a she had and jihad

is both struggling against the cell but

also against social injustice is outside

of us and then being a mistake of

somebody that is has internalized the

struggle I mean you know the eighth form

in Arabic is a reflexive you know it's

to internalize the first form so if she

had is literally internalizing the


and that's what what our youth needs to

do and also I think it's absolutely

essential for it for the youth to be

aware of is that that youth and it's

something we cannot appreciate at 20 but

we can appreciate say at 35 and and I

think hopefully at 50 it'll be even more

clear but one of the things at 20 that's

very difficult to appreciate is that

people that are older than us have been

through certain stages and and we have

to understand this contextual nature of

life itself

that that a lot of our feelings at the

age of 20 have to do with with the age

that we're in and to be a man or woman

of depth and substance we have to have

the continuum constantly in perspective

the Muslim is somebody that recognizes

that this is a journey from the cradle

to the grave and we will go through

stages but ultimately the goal should

always be present and therefore to get

caught up in fleeting matters about

youth is is is very dangerous without

the guidance of and wisdom of of age

right I mean the she'll were not called

she'll for nothing shaf means old man

and shaka means old woman and people can

be shaped before their time but it means

they have the wisdom of old age and it

might happen at the age of 25 or in

Malik's case at the age of 17 when he

was giving fatwa and teaching in Medina

so the idea of having the depth of old

age and recognizing the Prophet SAW

Dyson articulated it beautifully in the

hadith leizerman a man named you after

Kabir Ana when I am silviana he's not

from us who doesn't respect the age and

the wisdom that comes with age and also

who does not have compassion

and mercy on the youth and recognize

that a lot of the energy that the youth

have a lot of the what they want to do I

mean I think for instance there's in

England I've come across there's some

politicized groups of youth that are

getting very politically active and I

think there's a lot of sincere energy

there that these people are struggling

with in justices with disenfranchisement

with with you know the conditions of the

Omo but how we need guidance you know it

can't simply be that we that our young

people become you know really anarchist

in a sense of just going out and and

tearing down as opposed to building

because it like so fond of that I mean

said I've never seen a revolutionary

build what he could destroy and and I

think that there's a lot of wisdom in

there yes it's interesting with sending

out these groups which claim to adhere

to the way of the Salaf actually seem

completely oblivious to the fact that

the one thing the Sun up didn't do was

to go out into public places and jump up

and down wave flags and shout allah

akbar jihad jihad looked at the

situation and figured out what was the

most effective way to deal with it and

if it meant they became scholars and

they spent 20 years doing nothing if

that's what they did rolled up their

sleeves and they did it well if they

thought what it means rather than

jumping around in Trafalgar Square and

shouting about the Western conspiracy in

Bosnia we actually go to Bosnia and

study do some they study how to fight a

war or dig holes for the Mujahideen we

get for dinner sore you know heal the

sick yeah absolutely

I'm sure that's an excellent point but

just to jump up and down into the shaft

once prostration doesn't dissipate

frustration you might remember

thoroughly but you go back home enduring

the same problem you might have seen the

hadith as related by Bob irani that LP

memory the hadith from Morocco mentions

in one of his books that one of the

signs of the end of time is the prophet

Elijah Remus refer to said well you

prunella puzzle see AHA that the the

Kazu that has well with just and

shouting and and really it's it's it's a

pathetic statement you know about our

condition because ultimately I think

over thirty years or even longer of

western demonstration because it's a

Western methodology like like you said

it's not it's not from our min hats the

profit in fact he did not allow his

companions to go to the Kaaba and shout

he told them not to do it we and we have

that recorded that some of the Sahaba

wanted to go to the Kaaba and announce

declare their Islam amidst the


and the father's o lies him did not

allow that and we also know one of the

things in in his descriptions that all

that health mentions is mentioned in the

hadith let me clean Sahaba he never

shouted and and also on the jihad he

used to tell them to lower their voices

doing dhikr on the jihad saying that how

that would apply to a lab in there and

he used to say unto me that led to their

owner awesome you're not calling a deaf

Lord you don't need to raise your voices

so who are we shouting at are we

shouting at the kuffar because Allah has

told us that

that they're not they're not concerned

about us and why should they be I mean

what where have you seen the Muslims

concerned about the social problems of

the Kefauver why should they be

concerned I mean really when we think

about it should we find fault in them

for not helping the situation in Bosnia

or if they're doing things to exacerbate

it are they at fault because as far as a

lot of them are concerned it's not to

their interests to have a Muslim

presence in Europe so I think really

ultimately they're just getting on with

business you know they're doing what

they perceive to be the best thing for

them to do and I think we have to be

really careful about getting caught up

and all that because Allah tells us

constantly to rectify ourselves you know

to to deal with you know instead of

constantly looking at the the the

non-muslims look at the Muslims you know

let's I mean let's stop blaming them

they're only doing what what what what

they understand to be the best thing for

them to do I think a lot of the fault is

that we haven't taken them the message

and and and the sad thing about it is

how can you take a message that you

don't have you know like the air safe up

into a shame there'll be you know

somebody it doesn't have something can't

get it so really yeah we I think we need

to this is a time where and and the

jihad that are taking place in Bosnia

Kashmir and these places Palestine these

are valid jihads that no Muslim can can

say otherwise but at the same time I

think in other places where we're not

directly engaged in combat with with

people that are out to destroy us or to

subjugate us I think it's very important

for the Muslims in this age to literally

to disengage and to start reflecting

deeply about how we got here

where we are and some serious strategies

for getting out of this morass in this

horrific condition that we found

ourselves in and if I think if we do

that something positive can happen

but once you say been along to some

ideological rally and you've managed to

persuade Sandra young 18 year old to

leave them listened to you for a little

bit would you tell him that it is an

obligation upon him to study Islam and

try and learn a little bit of that great

alone to pass on Anna expounded is that

an obligation for him

or are there other legitimate things

that he can be doing with this life well

I we have far buying and fucking liar

they hasn't become a fun time nowadays

because I personally believe I'm this is

my and I think a lot of our mo would

would agree with this but I do believe

that Arabic language is now and I mean

because there are so few people that

actually know it that there's not a key

fire because it's 45 means Keith ayah

means enough if there's enough people

doing it then it's no longer obligatory

and everybody else so I personally do

believe hadith Sciences are obligatory

on all of us

memorizing the Quran is obligatory on

all of us learning because there's not

enough people to do it we don't have

enough people how father for unknown to

teach the children and the prophets of

hey document ID number Quran demo the

best of you are those who teach the

learning of Quran and teach it so this

is the best and highest thing somebody

can do so I think personally I think

what what we need to do is as

individuals is make a commitment and and

this is something that I've been giving

a lot of thought to and formulating in

my own mind and understanding we need to

make a commitment to a methodology of

the revival of Islam and I believe that

that this has taken place several times

historically and every time it has been

directly linked to the revival of the

sciences of the Deen Imam al-ghazali in

his age he's considered the majid did of

his time by the consensus of them I

don't know any I mean it's all it's like

almost much money a man was really when

he talks about this study which is a

study without the image at the beginning

of every century

he lists all of the all of that up to

his own time and the only one he says

there's no difference in opinion of our

family members only that that's that's

my understanding that he was by

consensus is imagine difficult 11 a lot

alike about




that's extraordinary what at dinner with

the auto butter and my mama doesn't

agree on air yeah that he what he did

was literally write a book called

vecchia over the limit Dean I mean you

you know I'm talking to a man who's

translating it in a beautiful language

which is wonderful that you've done that

that you've learned Arabic to such a

high level and much on that you've also

got the gifts of English that because I

think you mentioned these appalling

translations I think one of the in

justices of our age is people who are

not qualified to translate translating

books I mean I have struggled personally

in my own self in trance should I

translate our shouldn't I just out of

kind of awareness of my own limitations

not only with Arabic but with English as

well because I think to take works of

such majestic language I mean you know

the language that these books have been

written in and certainly the the Quran

and the hadith of the Prophet Elias and

which are in some of the most exalt and

language that human beings have ever

used to take that and put it into this

pathetic English it's blasphemous as

well I think it is a blasphemy because

what what you're doing is it is a

Western person that reads that and this

thing it's reported that the prophets

allies that I'm sad and then you have

this this English that doesn't even make

sense it's making our prophet look like

he was he was not comprehensible did he

that he couldn't he couldn't put

sentences to get really I mean this is

the effect of it and I think that this

is just I mean this is a crime it really

is and I think people like Mataji in

Lebanon and I'll say the name this this

woman I

you know just translating these works

issues they need to fear all along they

really do they need to fear Allah I mean

I know that mahjong that you have a very

strong guys from the Arabic but I know

you've had to go to scholars and have

them explain to you passages from that

yeah which is written in a reasonably I

mean he's not one of the more abstruse

writers he was watching for for the

al-amin right I mean and Mustafa his

book in osoon is extremely abstruse and

complicated language but but his idea

was literally written for for general

educated Muslims and I know that you you

know you've had to I mean isn't that

true you know yeah

so this idea you getting the dictionary

out and people using hans there too

which is a wonderful dictionary

personally and i mean i feel it was a

useful job but it's not a scholastic it

is not a scholastic tool for translating

um you know it's a it's a dictionary you

use for the newspaper it's a small now

it's modern arabic so you have to go to

the great you know late lexicon is

certainly a remarkable achievement it's

limited in that after that's what i said

he never got to whore on so yeah i need

to do is we need quality works in

english but but getting the the whole

point we kind of transgressed here but

the point of this was that Azadi wrote a

fiat uno Medine see father Azusa Eddie

brought back knowledge to Algeria both

mend and foe do that I really think that

we need to seriously study um as a

methodology because he was dealing with

the Cologne

impact one of the great Mujahid's of the

Islamic Ummah historically but not only

that he literally established kunafa I

mean he did it yeah in in Sokoto Misano

serie and cleanses Sano see the

beautiful story of imam Sanusi when the

Turkish came and asked to see his

arsenals the the historian he was in

jail boo which is where their manes Ali

was and he took him to the library and

showed him all their manuscripts and he

said this is our arsenal this is the

Muhsin and that is not a kind of

flippant remark I think that the man he

truly meant that because Allah likes a

know Homer said we are not given victory

because of superior munitions or numbers

he says to say no Homer says decide to

been any more class that almost always

these people are over us in in munitions

and but we are given victory because of

our spiritual strength in our moral

uprightness which is based on knowledge

and that any moment I'm acknowledge is

the Imam of action and this is something

if we if we really want a true

renaissance and not just he's kind of

slogan you know Islam is the solution

and Islam lash out P of ever be if we

want to transcend the slogan Islam then

I think we're going we have to revive

the sciences of the Deen and to this end

we need youth that are willing to commit

I think there's there's benefit Omar


in in Mecca and Medinah University have

adopted Western methodologies completely

and I think that my own experience from

people that have graduated from those

schools by their own admittance had told

me that they actually felt deprived at

the end of the experience that might not

be true for all graduates I can't speak

for all the graduates but I have met a

considerable amount particularly Western

people that have gone there and really

did feel at the end of it that they

actually had not acquired a whole lot of

knowledge and also the actual experience

was very frustrating and difficult

because of the social issues involved I

have not been to Syria myself

I think Mauritania is an incredibly

difficult place to live I mean I

personally got hepatitis I got dysentery

you know I really suffered physically

living there but I did in the Emirates I

lived with great more attending scholars

there and benefited greatly and I think

the Emirates is a place that that

there's potential to study with

traditional shapes there they're

considerable number of them and but I

know Syria has some some very good

mattresses that are still in existence

and you know people have this idea of

the government and I think we need to to

get beyond this what we want is the

knowledge if the government is is you

know if these shield are not speaking

out against the government I think that

we should respect the Basia and the

Philosopher's lanús of these teachers

that they're obviously they're trying to

preserve the Dean and I think if they're

out there shouting against the

tyrannical leadership and end up in

prison they're not a whole lot of

benefit to the Ummah in prison and it's

certainly we know the hadith that that

the greatest Shaheed is the one who

speaks the truth in front of an unjust

tyrant but I think we also have to

understand that historically those who


were one of literally tens of thousands

of anima that were present with

institutions functioning we're in an age

that to lose one scholar is it's a


it's fun it's it's it's something really

frightening literally - I mean to lose

one scholar in Syria or Egypt now is the

equivalent of maybe losing ten thousand

two hundred years ago and I don't think

I mean would you I don't think that's an

exaggeration I think it's the case in

Syria actually quite frightened when you

hear that some luminaries time has died

up okay we have students but nobody is

anywhere near his and there where his

level is so I think people have to be

aware of the age were living in one of

the things I'm Azurill ends his book out

of collide with the thing Allen money on

your corner are even bizarre many a man

must know the age he is living in and we

have to understand the age where they

may not be so simplistic and and reduce

issues to black and white

I mean Muslims have been aware of fuzzy

logic for centuries right I mean that

the things are not black and white think

that there are many vamoosh to be had

there's me the problems all I said I've

said there's things that are clear

there's things that are unclear and then

there's things that are clearly Haram

clearly hell out and they know I'm not

when water moves that

Layana moving that Cathedral minute

nasty only a few people understand those

things and this is an age where people

have to recognize that debt matters are

not clear things are not clear and we

have to trust the wisdom and guidance

people like chef side that I'm about and

bolted who's criticized as being some

government Lackey and the truth of the

matter is that man is literally

preserving Islam in in Syria he's you

know I mean

I don't I think that spamela it's just

it's really frightening what I've done

what a lot of young people are this

black and white tendency I suppose is

understandable given the fairly

desperate situation a lot of

disenfranchised youth in the West no

it's not just among Muslims I think you

see I mean given that the established

churches and British Christianity are

dying on their feet now precisely

because they can't give clear-cut

answers to the initiatives of the age

for will drain problems of the age you

see young people dining strange sects

and factions and cults like the Moonies

or David Koresh and in your part of the


because they can give them clear answers

as he desires as well and if you're with

us you're from the the saved faction but

if you do a little bit of that then

you're not acceptable and all of those

people in there they're 99 percent of

the people who claim to follow our

religion they're completely beyond the

pale right people like that they like

simplify that matters doesn't it I mean

we don't have to think yeah we don't

have a feather afternoon don't you use

your intellect I mean it's certainly

easy just to surrender my mind to an

ideology which I hate that word you know

I really it bothers me that people talk

about the Islamic ideology because I

know where do I find that I mean even in

Arabic ideology

there's not even a translation for the

word you know this idea that Islam is

some kind of ideology I mean as long as

literally it's me it's it's a I like the

idea of ortho praxis you know that it's

literally it's a correct mode of

behavior based on on a clear

understanding you know but it's

certainly not this ideology that we we

learn like a Marxist learns you know the

vocabulary of Marx's own terms and

acronyms and remember Bob would be that

which becomes a kind of Sieg Heil - Sieg


absolutely now I think there's a lot of

useful comparisons that one can draw

between the same sex and Christianity

like the moon s or the Branch Davidians

whatever and some of the young cups that

are appearing in various alarm situation

it's a good point in the West but also

in the Islamic world at the root of the

same paradox ruling then we need also to

recognize the this something that you

know I mentioned a lot is that we need

to recognize the historical context in

which we live that that Islam I

literally believe that all the vast

majority of these groups now that have

names and I don't really don't want to

go into naming people and you know but

but the groups that adhere to these

names and titles and things like that

they're gonna be historical footnotes

you know in the history of Islam we have

the motor jet year we have the hot area

we have them with yes SEMA we have the

Martez we have the college we have all

these evolving yeah and on and on and on

the some of its and all these sects that

have come and gone but Islam has

remained it has remained Islam is not an

ephemeral temporal contextual idea this

LOM is its Dean on how it is the Dean of

the truth and it will remain it will be

preserved by the promise of Allah and

the promise of his messenger by us or by

other than us when took their one lowest

of their own right Oakland forma de

Oakland tatical if you don't do it I'll

replace you with people that will do it

and they won't be like you and this is

this is it you know it's Islam will

remain and we will all die but Islam

will remain

it will remain by people by human beings

that stand up and preserved it in every

age and teach it and do you think that

preservation is exclusively academic

what if a young person says ok I'm just

not very academically gifted I didn't

have that kind of career path will do it

by such a person I think what would be

more generally your advice to young

people to continuing people yeah I don't

think everybody is academically inclined

and I don't really believe that that is

you know it's like it's like saying in

these books these this wretched

statement that the main purpose of a

woman is to to bear children have you

come across that it needs some books on

women and Islam I mean nowhere in the

Quran does it say that in fact it says

that we make some women barren and what

she's lost her main role a woman's role

is to know Allah and His Messenger and

to act accordingly you know I mean it

certainly is a primary role but we can't

say that this is the main no no the main

role is like you Vanisher says oh what a

legitimate ionamin could be family

making them and nothing in and yadi for

allah what I'm sort of busy Fatima

nestled by D and int the first

obligation of every human being who has

technique is to know Allah and His

Messenger based on how they how they the

knowledge has been preserved so I think

that that people should learn the father

dying but I also think they should be

committed to some study I mean I believe

you know it's not the idea of maybe

becoming an academic or becoming a

scholar but we should be maintained to

growth to intellectual growth because I

really don't see any excuse for that we

should all be committed to some people

should commit themselves to learning the

Quran to to reciting it to thinking

about it to listening to what the the

scholars say about it and committed to

going to the Masjid you know and

partaking in circles that are beneficial

right that are imparting knowledge and

other than that I think we need to look

at areas we need people

in media we need we need people

journalists we need artists quite

literally I mean you know art is is an

essential element of civilization and

the Muslims the prophets are licensed

all stood in the light Demeter we are

but Jenna Allah is beautiful and he

loves beauty and one of the beauties of

Islamic civilization is that even the

Bedouin have have these you know they

make beautiful rugs they have beautiful

pillows the you know in Mauritania I

always like to mention you know they

take these Bic pens these plastic pens

they take off the plastic and they they

make their own beautiful metal cases

because they think it's the pen well

none of them is photo and you know a lot

swears by the pen I've never been kind

of that it should be honored and they

just you know they don't think that the

plastic is really befitting and that is

some aesthetic understanding that that

really real automatic the Navy says that

you know one of the essential elements

of civilization is the aesthetic aspects

and he said one of the proofs of the the

extraordinary level of of loss of our of

our civilization is that we you know we

ornament our houses with plastic


plastic cups and things like that that

have been made in some factory in china

by non-muslims or something like that

and and we don't respect the so I think

we need calligraphers you know we need

people to go and learn calligraphy

that's not an academic task but it's a

beautiful and wonderful and as a means

of Dawa it's a path for sometimes I mean

Western I can't argue with the sonic art

you can argue with Ahmed Deedat pamphlet

mr. Brown does that knee other wrong

but if you present him with a carpet

from a little below zero it should

attachment a lot like he has to accept

it on something that accurate but to do

that what I produce that exactly I mean

what you know when I went to Grenada

seeing the alhambra i think this is

barbarians can't do this

you know the heavy barbarians cannot

produce what these people produced and

this is a proof against all their claims

about you know this know that but we we

have to stop living on the glories of

the past you know as an OMA we have to

stop pointing to the past like you know

the and reducing certificate I thought

oh that's a doodle I need a fun little

bandana that's a tea these are our

traces they indicate who we were so look

after we're gone at what we left behind

and this is what we have an only have to

ask ourselves can we say this to the

generations that are gonna follow us

here's what we've left behind look at

our traces and see who we are what what

what are what you know what is it

telling the future generations about who

we want look at our pamphlets we don't

even have academic we've become an Ummah

of pamphleteers you know everybody

writes these pamphlets what is Islam

you know why you shouldn't move your

finger in the prayer why you should hold

your hands here as opposed you know

where the great works where are the

great intellectual achievements where

are the artistic achievements you know

even clothes have become it's true I'm

sure that one of them is damning

indictment one could make of the modern

Islamic revival this ideologists and I'm

not talking about all the individuals

who qualify but the Gen

parameters which they set up for

themselves is the fact that really for

the first time in Islamic history we

have a mass movement with no cultural

riches to it rather look at what the

Sahaba produced within a hundred years

there was the Dome of the rock in

Jerusalem one of the great monuments of

human civilization there are the cellar

more so a part of the Senate the

must-haves that they wrote that

architecture the art extraordinary

poetry that athlete other or easy enough

creativity from the human spirit because

of the human spirit is truly enlightened

by religion it date has to flow up like

light from the Sun it has to make a

really beautiful but where is the calm

feel very nice honor that goes with the

modernist I know you're going to a

mosque now and and Muslims that we've

been transmogrified into just these hot

creatures I mean even our clothes don't

you know one of the things about western

clothes I mean they're they're they're

really kind of ugly clothes in my

perspective I mean I thought that before

I was Muslim Muslim clothes are

beautiful they really they're they're

they're heavy for clothes that's what I

like to call them they're highly for

clothes that they honor many Adam but

one of the things about I mean at least

a lot of Western people know how to wear

western clothes one of the things you

find Muslim people they you know they

don't even they look like caricatures

did you take a Sudanese villager out of

his group and tear them and put him into

what Western plates you can find and

it's all suddenly panic sort of yeah

guest workers yes rather than these

noble people with Subhan Allah there's a

hadith and very happy relates that has

some weakness in it but but I think in

historically it's fascinating he said

that I'm not a multi generator

either was i oh ha what Aloha is zoom

that the turbines are the Crown's of the

Arab people and when they take them off

Allah will take away their dignity and

and it's fascinating that you can see

that the 10z mass in the 1850s I ain't

you're much more knowledgeable about

this in iron but when one of the things

that they did was literally get the

turbines off the oume and this is a

really major turning point

in the in the beginning of the decline

and disintegration of the the Muslim

power and dignity in physical change

people's outward form it has an effect

on you well absolutely believe in the

intermingling of rebellion this very

often my father and I I'd do something

to your outward it affect your spirit if

you just details there it will manifest

on the hour

absolutely their survival it's very true

anyway and thank you very much for your

time I hope ten times more than you have

well it's you know I one of the reasons

that I was excited about coming here and

I'm not just you know this isn't just

some weed a minute but I really was

looking forward to seeing you I think

that the work that you're doing is

you're just one of the few scholars

right now that's that's just doing work

of such a high caliber that I think it's

that there's nothing I just hope that

Allah will exceptional times in it I

love it so and I really hope that that

more people begin to take this task upon

themselves of presenting Islam to to the

West I think that you know just to

finish this this off I think

the Europeans and the Americans are at

such a deep crisis right now they really

are they're aware of it they're

intellectuals are aware of it they're

there they're the writings are shouting

it out you know Thoreau said most people

live lives of quiet desperation the

desperation is no longer quiet

it's literally people are shouting it at

the top of their lungs and this long

took the most savage bloody people

people that could bury their daughters

alive people that could eat the livers

of their their enemies you know on the

battlefield a woman that can do that it

took those people and transformed them

into these you know these deeply human

compassionate people that had a thirst

for knowledge for EM and we reviewed

with the love of God that they literally

went and they transformed the world and

and we cannot you know the anglo-saxons

have a horrific history you know of what

they've done to the world the havoc that

they wreaked upon the world but they are

recipients of the mercy of Allah just

like anybody else the French we know

what they did to the Muslims but we also

know what the mushrikeen did to the

prophet sallallaahu so no and he took

this long to them he gave it to them and

they became the people that literally

went out and transformed the world and I

think Allah in his deep and infinite

wisdom has placed the Muslims in the

heart of the Western world and this has

happened historically before the

Christians were thrust into the heart of

the Roman Empire and they transformed it

they really did they transformed it and

that their enemies who had persecuted

them for three centuries adopted their

religion and

and I don't see why it can't happen


I mean I just I believe in the power of

Allah and I believe in the

transformative message of Islam and I

and I really believe that this is deenal

Haq that that people will recognize the

truth of it we have massive amount of

work ahead of us you know you're fully

aware of that and I'm aware of it and I

just we don't have time to bicker you

know we don't have time to get in petty

confrontations with each other this is a

time where we really have to unite and

and and and do some serious jihad and HT

HOD and do some thicker thicker and

sugar and take this Deen out to the

people you know I think they're thirsty

for the herbs the earth is thirsty for

it you know this earth wants to be

worshipped on it doesn't want that

and the earth is thirsty for and we need

to heal the earth as well not just the

people on it but the earth is suffering

from our gross injustice is so I hope

inshallah you know the people hearing

this you know we'll just think about

these things and then and I hope and

shallowed there's some benefit money one

of my favorite verses in the Quran and

all of the Quran is really my favorite

verses but and the Dean yes Tamera they

just Amira now called a theater owner a

son of those who listen to what's said

and they follow the best of it so in

Shaba ask allah subhana wa qarna that

this conversation is some benefit and

people can derive some benefit meaning

from it and take what's useful from it

and discard what's not something that is

like alchemy