Interview with Tim Winters (1995)

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Event Name: Interview with Tim Winters (1995)
Transcription Date:Transcription Modified Date: 7/15/2019 9:00:14 PM
Transcript Version: 2

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for the Muslims in this age to literally

to disengage and to start reflecting

deeply about how we got here

where we are and some serious strategies

for getting out of this morass in this

horrific condition that we found

ourselves in and if I think if we do

that something positive can happen

but once you say been along to some

ideological rally and you've managed to

persuade Sandra young 18 year old to

leave them listened to you for a little

bit would you tell him that it is an

obligation upon him to study Islam and

try and learn a little bit of that great

alone to pass on Anna expounded is that

an obligation for him

or are there other legitimate things

that he can be doing with this life well

I we have far buying and fucking liar

they hasn't become a fun time nowadays

because I personally believe I'm this is

my and I think a lot of our mo would

would agree with this but I do believe

that Arabic language is now and I mean

because there are so few people that

actually know it that there's not a key

fire because it's 45 means Keith ayah

means enough if there's enough people

doing it then it's no longer obligatory

and everybody else so I personally do

believe hadith Sciences are obligatory

on all of us

memorizing the Quran is obligatory on

all of us learning because there's not

enough people to do it we don't have

enough people how father for unknown to

teach the children and the prophets of

hey document ID number Quran demo the

best of you are those who teach the

learning of Quran and teach it so this

is the best and highest thing somebody

can do so I think personally I think

what what we need to do is as

individuals is make a commitment and and

this is something that I've been giving

a lot of thought to and formulating in

my own mind and understanding we need to

make a commitment to a methodology of

the revival of Islam and I believe that

that this has taken place several times

historically and every time it has been

directly linked to the revival of the

sciences of the Deen Imam al-ghazali in

his age he's considered the majid did of

his time by the consensus of them I

don't know any I mean it's all it's like

almost much money a man was really when

he talks about this study which is a

study without the image at the beginning

of every century

he lists all of the all of that up to

his own time and the only one he says

there's no difference in opinion of our

family members only that that's that's

my understanding that he was by

consensus is imagine difficult 11 a lot

alike about




that's extraordinary what at dinner with

the auto butter and my mama doesn't

agree on air yeah that he what he did

was literally write a book called

vecchia over the limit Dean I mean you

you know I'm talking to a man who's

translating it in a beautiful language

which is wonderful that you've done that

that you've learned Arabic to such a

high level and much on that you've also

got the gifts of English that because I

think you mentioned these appalling

translations I think one of the in

justices of our age is people who are

not qualified to translate translating

books I mean I have struggled personally

in my own self in trance should I

translate our shouldn't I just out of

kind of awareness of my own limitations

not only with Arabic but with English as

well because I think to take works of

such majestic language I mean you know

the language that these books have been

written in and certainly the the Quran

and the hadith of the Prophet Elias and

which are in some of the most exalt and

language that human beings have ever

used to take that and put it into this

pathetic English it's blasphemous as

well I think it is a blasphemy because

what what you're doing is it is a

Western person that reads that and this

thing it's reported that the prophets

allies that I'm sad and then you have

this this English that doesn't even make

sense it's making our prophet look like

he was he was not comprehensible did he

that he couldn't he couldn't put

sentences to get really I mean this is

the effect of it and I think that this

is just I mean this is a crime it really

is and I think people like Mataji in

Lebanon and I'll say the name this this

woman I

you know just translating these works

issues they need to fear all along they

really do they need to fear Allah I mean

I know that mahjong that you have a very

strong guys from the Arabic but I know

you've had to go to scholars and have

them explain to you passages from that

yeah which is written in a reasonably I

mean he's not one of the more abstruse

writers he was watching for for the

al-amin right I mean and Mustafa his

book in osoon is extremely abstruse and

complicated language but but his idea

was literally written for for general

educated Muslims and I know that you you

know you've had to I mean isn't that

true you know yeah

so this idea you getting the dictionary

out and people using hans there too

which is a wonderful dictionary

personally and i mean i feel it was a

useful job but it's not a scholastic it

is not a scholastic tool for translating

um you know it's a it's a dictionary you

use for the newspaper it's a small now

it's modern arabic so you have to go to

the great you know late lexicon is

certainly a remarkable achievement it's

limited in that after that's what i said

he never got to whore on so yeah i need

to do is we need quality works in

english but but getting the the whole

point we kind of transgressed here but

the point of this was that Azadi wrote a

fiat uno Medine see father Azusa Eddie

brought back knowledge to Algeria both

mend and foe do that I really think that

we need to seriously study um as a

methodology because he was dealing with

the Cologne

impact one of the great Mujahid's of the

Islamic Ummah historically but not only

that he literally established kunafa I

mean he did it yeah in in Sokoto Misano

serie and cleanses Sano see the

beautiful story of imam Sanusi when the

Turkish came and asked to see his

arsenals the the historian he was in

jail boo which is where their manes Ali

was and he took him to the library and

showed him all their manuscripts and he

said this is our arsenal this is the

Muhsin and that is not a kind of

flippant remark I think that the man he

truly meant that because Allah likes a

know Homer said we are not given victory

because of superior munitions or numbers

he says to say no Homer says decide to

been any more class that almost always

these people are over us in in munitions

and but we are given victory because of

our spiritual strength in our moral

uprightness which is based on knowledge

and that any moment I'm acknowledge is

the Imam of action and this is something

if we if we really want a true

renaissance and not just he's kind of

slogan you know Islam is the solution

and Islam lash out P of ever be if we

want to transcend the slogan Islam then

I think we're going we have to revive

the sciences of the Deen and to this end

we need youth that are willing to commit

I think there's there's benefit Omar


in in Mecca and Medinah University have

adopted Western methodologies completely

and I think that my own experience from

people that have graduated from those

schools by their own admittance had told

me that they actually felt deprived at

the end of the experience that might not

be true for all graduates I can't speak

for all the graduates but I have met a

considerable amount particularly Western

people that have gone there and really

did feel at the end of it that they

actually had not acquired a whole lot of

knowledge and also the actual experience

was very frustrating and difficult

because of the social issues involved I

have not been to Syria myself

I think Mauritania is an incredibly

difficult place to live I mean I

personally got hepatitis I got dysentery

you know I really suffered physically

living there but I did in the Emirates I

lived with great more attending scholars

there and benefited greatly and I think

the Emirates is a place that that

there's potential to study with

traditional shapes there they're

considerable number of them and but I

know Syria has some some very good

mattresses that are still in existence

and you know people have this idea of

the government and I think we need to to

get beyond this what we want is the

knowledge if the government is is you

know if these shield are not speaking

out against the government I think that

we should respect the Basia and the

Philosopher's lanús of these teachers

that they're obviously they're trying to

preserve the Dean and I think if they're

out there shouting against the

tyrannical leadership and end up in

prison they're not a whole lot of

benefit to the Ummah in prison and it's

certainly we know the hadith that that

the greatest Shaheed is the one who

speaks the truth in front of an unjust

tyrant but I think we also have to

understand that historically those who


were one of literally tens of thousands

of anima that were present with

institutions functioning we're in an age

that to lose one scholar is it's a


it's fun it's it's it's something really

frightening literally - I mean to lose

one scholar in Syria or Egypt now is the

equivalent of maybe losing ten thousand

two hundred years ago and I don't think

I mean would you I don't think that's an

exaggeration I think it's the case in

Syria actually quite frightened when you

hear that some luminaries time has died

up okay we have students but nobody is

anywhere near his and there where his

level is so I think people have to be

aware of the age were living in one of

the things I'm Azurill ends his book out

of collide with the thing Allen money on

your corner are even bizarre many a man

must know the age he is living in and we

have to understand the age where they

may not be so simplistic and and reduce

issues to black and white

I mean Muslims have been aware of fuzzy

logic for centuries right I mean that

the things are not black and white think

that there are many vamoosh to be had

there's me the problems all I said I've

said there's things that are clear

there's things that are unclear and then

there's things that are clearly Haram

clearly hell out and they know I'm not

when water moves that

Layana moving that Cathedral minute

nasty only a few people understand those

things and this is an age where people

have to recognize that debt matters are

not clear things are not clear and we

have to trust the wisdom and guidance

people like chef side that I'm about and

bolted who's criticized as being some

government Lackey and the truth of the

matter is that man is literally

preserving Islam in in Syria he's you

know I mean

I don't I think that spamela it's just

it's really frightening what I've done

what a lot of young people are this

black and white tendency I suppose is

understandable given the fairly

desperate situation a lot of

disenfranchised youth in the West no

it's not just among Muslims I think you

see I mean given that the established

churches and British Christianity are

dying on their feet now precisely

because they can't give clear-cut

answers to the initiatives of the age

for will drain problems of the age you

see young people dining strange sects

and factions and cults like the Moonies

or David Koresh and in your part of the


because they can give them clear answers

as he desires as well and if you're with

us you're from the the saved faction but

if you do a little bit of that then

you're not acceptable and all of those

people in there they're 99 percent of

the people who claim to follow our

religion they're completely beyond the

pale right people like that they like

simplify that matters doesn't it I mean

we don't have to think yeah we don't

have a feather afternoon don't you use

your intellect I mean it's certainly

easy just to surrender my mind to an

ideology which I hate that word you know

I really it bothers me that people talk

about the Islamic ideology because I

know where do I find that I mean even in

Arabic ideology

there's not even a translation for the

word you know this idea that Islam is

some kind of ideology I mean as long as

literally it's me it's it's a I like the

idea of ortho praxis you know that it's

literally it's a correct mode of

behavior based on on a clear

understanding you know but it's

certainly not this ideology that we we

learn like a Marxist learns you know the

vocabulary of Marx's own terms and

acronyms and remember Bob would be that

which becomes a kind of Sieg Heil - Sieg


absolutely now I think there's a lot of

useful comparisons that one can draw

between the same sex and Christianity

like the moon s or the Branch Davidians

whatever and some of the young cups that

are appearing in various alarm situation

it's a good point in the West but also

in the Islamic world at the root of the

same paradox ruling then we need also to

recognize the this something that you

know I mentioned a lot is that we need

to recognize the historical context in

which we live that that Islam I

literally believe that all the vast

majority of these groups now that have

names and I don't really don't want to

go into naming people and you know but

but the groups that adhere to these

names and titles and things like that

they're gonna be historical footnotes

you know in the history of Islam we have

the motor jet year we have the hot area

we have them with yes SEMA we have the

Martez we have the college we have all

these evolving yeah and on and on and on

the some of its and all these sects that

have come and gone but Islam has

remained it has remained Islam is not an

ephemeral temporal contextual idea this

LOM is its Dean on how it is the Dean of

the truth and it will remain it will be

preserved by the promise of Allah and

the promise of his messenger by us or by

other than us when took their one lowest

of their own right Oakland forma de

Oakland tatical if you don't do it I'll

replace you with people that will do it

and they won't be like you and this is

this is it you know it's Islam will

remain and we will all die but Islam

will remain

it will remain by people by human beings

that stand up and preserved it in every

age and teach it and do you think that

preservation is exclusively academic

what if a young person says ok I'm just

not very academically gifted I didn't

have that kind of career path will do it

by such a person I think what would be

more generally your advice to young

people to continuing people yeah I don't

think everybody is academically inclined

and I don't really believe that that is

you know it's like it's like saying in

these books these this wretched

statement that the main purpose of a

woman is to to bear children have you

come across that it needs some books on

women and Islam I mean nowhere in the

Quran does it say that in fact it says

that we make some women barren and what

she's lost her main role a woman's role

is to know Allah and His Messenger and

to act accordingly you know I mean it

certainly is a primary role but we can't

say that this is the main no no the main

role is like you Vanisher says oh what a

legitimate ionamin could be family

making them and nothing in and yadi for

allah what I'm sort of busy Fatima

nestled by D and int the first

obligation of every human being who has

technique is to know Allah and His

Messenger based on how they how they the

knowledge has been preserved so I think

that that people should learn the father

dying but I also think they should be

committed to some study I mean I believe

you know it's not the idea of maybe

becoming an academic or becoming a

scholar but we should be maintained to

growth to intellectual growth because I

really don't see any excuse for that we

should all be committed to some people

should commit themselves to learning the

Quran to to reciting it to thinking

about it to listening to what the the

scholars say about it and committed to

going to the Masjid you know and

partaking in circles that are beneficial

right that are imparting knowledge and

other than that I think we need to look

at areas we need people

in media we need we need people

journalists we need artists quite

literally I mean you know art is is an

essential element of civilization and

the Muslims the prophets are licensed

all stood in the light Demeter we are

but Jenna Allah is beautiful and he

loves beauty and one of the beauties of

Islamic civilization is that even the

Bedouin have have these you know they

make beautiful rugs they have beautiful

pillows the you know in Mauritania I

always like to mention you know they

take these Bic pens these plastic pens

they take off the plastic and they they

make their own beautiful metal cases

because they think it's the pen well

none of them is photo and you know a lot

swears by the pen I've never been kind

of that it should be honored and they

just you know they don't think that the

plastic is really befitting and that is

some aesthetic understanding that that

really real automatic the Navy says that

you know one of the essential elements

of civilization is the aesthetic aspects

and he said one of the proofs of the the

extraordinary level of of loss of our of

our civilization is that we you know we

ornament our houses with plastic


plastic cups and things like that that

have been made in some factory in china

by non-muslims or something like that

and and we don't respect the so I think

we need calligraphers you know we need

people to go and learn calligraphy

that's not an academic task but it's a

beautiful and wonderful and as a means

of Dawa it's a path for sometimes I mean

Western I can't argue with the sonic art

you can argue with Ahmed Deedat pamphlet

mr. Brown does that knee other wrong

but if you present him with a carpet

from a little below zero it should

attachment a lot like he has to accept

it on something that accurate but to do

that what I produce that exactly I mean

what you know when I went to Grenada

seeing the alhambra i think this is

barbarians can't do this

you know the heavy barbarians cannot

produce what these people produced and

this is a proof against all their claims

about you know this know that but we we

have to stop living on the glories of

the past you know as an OMA we have to

stop pointing to the past like you know

the and reducing certificate I thought

oh that's a doodle I need a fun little

bandana that's a tea these are our

traces they indicate who we were so look

after we're gone at what we left behind

and this is what we have an only have to

ask ourselves can we say this to the

generations that are gonna follow us

here's what we've left behind look at

our traces and see who we are what what

what are what you know what is it

telling the future generations about who

we want look at our pamphlets we don't

even have academic we've become an Ummah

of pamphleteers you know everybody

writes these pamphlets what is Islam

you know why you shouldn't move your

finger in the prayer why you should hold

your hands here as opposed you know

where the great works where are the

great intellectual achievements where

are the artistic achievements you know

even clothes have become it's true I'm

sure that one of them is damning

indictment one could make of the modern

Islamic revival this ideologists and I'm

not talking about all the individuals

who qualify but the Gen

parameters which they set up for

themselves is the fact that really for

the first time in Islamic history we

have a mass movement with no cultural

riches to it rather look at what the

Sahaba produced within a hundred years

there was the Dome of the rock in

Jerusalem one of the great monuments of

human civilization there are the cellar

more so a part of the Senate the

must-haves that they wrote that

architecture the art extraordinary

poetry that athlete other or easy enough

creativity from the human spirit because

of the human spirit is truly enlightened

by religion it date has to flow up like

light from the Sun it has to make a

really beautiful but where is the calm

feel very nice honor that goes with the

modernist I know you're going to a

mosque now and and Muslims that we've

been transmogrified into just these hot

creatures I mean even our clothes don't

you know one of the things about western

clothes I mean they're they're they're

really kind of ugly clothes in my

perspective I mean I thought that before

I was Muslim Muslim clothes are

beautiful they really they're they're

they're heavy for clothes that's what I

like to call them they're highly for

clothes that they honor many Adam but

one of the things about I mean at least

a lot of Western people know how to wear

western clothes one of the things you

find Muslim people they you know they

don't even they look like caricatures

did you take a Sudanese villager out of

his group and tear them and put him into

what Western plates you can find and

it's all suddenly panic sort of yeah

guest workers yes rather than these

noble people with Subhan Allah there's a

hadith and very happy relates that has

some weakness in it but but I think in

historically it's fascinating he said

that I'm not a multi generator

either was i oh ha what Aloha is zoom

that the turbines are the Crown's of the

Arab people and when they take them off

Allah will take away their dignity and

and it's fascinating that you can see

that the 10z mass in the 1850s I ain't

you're much more knowledgeable about

this in iron but when one of the things

that they did was literally get the

turbines off the oume and this is a

really major turning point

in the in the beginning of the decline

and disintegration of the the Muslim

power and dignity in physical change

people's outward form it has an effect

on you well absolutely believe in the

intermingling of rebellion this very

often my father and I I'd do something

to your outward it affect your spirit if

you just details there it will manifest

on the hour

absolutely their survival it's very true

anyway and thank you very much for your

time I hope ten times more than you have

well it's you know I one of the reasons

that I was excited about coming here and

I'm not just you know this isn't just

some weed a minute but I really was

looking forward to seeing you I think

that the work that you're doing is

you're just one of the few scholars

right now that's that's just doing work

of such a high caliber that I think it's

that there's nothing I just hope that

Allah will exceptional times in it I

love it so and I really hope that that

more people begin to take this task upon

themselves of presenting Islam to to the

West I think that you know just to

finish this this off I think

the Europeans and the Americans are at

such a deep crisis right now they really

are they're aware of it they're

intellectuals are aware of it they're

there they're the writings are shouting

it out you know Thoreau said most people

live lives of quiet desperation the

desperation is no longer quiet

it's literally people are shouting it at

the top of their lungs and this long

took the most savage bloody people

people that could bury their daughters

alive people that could eat the livers

of their their enemies you know on the

battlefield a woman that can do that it

took those people and transformed them

into these you know these deeply human

compassionate people that had a thirst

for knowledge for EM and we reviewed

with the love of God that they literally

went and they transformed the world and

and we cannot you know the anglo-saxons

have a horrific history you know of what

they've done to the world the havoc that

they wreaked upon the world but they are

recipients of the mercy of Allah just

like anybody else the French we know

what they did to the Muslims but we also

know what the mushrikeen did to the

prophet sallallaahu so no and he took

this long to them he gave it to them and

they became the people that literally

went out and transformed the world and I

think Allah in his deep and infinite

wisdom has placed the Muslims in the

heart of the Western world and this has

happened historically before the

Christians were thrust into the heart of

the Roman Empire and they transformed it

they really did they transformed it and

that their enemies who had persecuted

them for three centuries adopted their

religion and

and I don't see why it can't happen


I mean I just I believe in the power of

Allah and I believe in the

transformative message of Islam and I

and I really believe that this is deenal

Haq that that people will recognize the

truth of it we have massive amount of

work ahead of us you know you're fully

aware of that and I'm aware of it and I

just we don't have time to bicker you

know we don't have time to get in petty

confrontations with each other this is a

time where we really have to unite and

and and and do some serious jihad and HT

HOD and do some thicker thicker and

sugar and take this Deen out to the

people you know I think they're thirsty

for the herbs the earth is thirsty for

it you know this earth wants to be

worshipped on it doesn't want that

and the earth is thirsty for and we need

to heal the earth as well not just the

people on it but the earth is suffering

from our gross injustice is so I hope

inshallah you know the people hearing

this you know we'll just think about

these things and then and I hope and

shallowed there's some benefit money one

of my favorite verses in the Quran and

all of the Quran is really my favorite

verses but and the Dean yes Tamera they

just Amira now called a theater owner a

son of those who listen to what's said

and they follow the best of it so in

Shaba ask allah subhana wa qarna that

this conversation is some benefit and

people can derive some benefit meaning

from it and take what's useful from it

and discard what's not something that is

like alchemy