throw that all of various topics for our
entire life with
it said Nadia program that I believe
that each speaker should give a five an
intro on their religious background and
designs i'm only looking to include that
within responses first question my own
background i was born in with typical
american jewish family typical in the
sense that it was not all religious and
became religious about each dog ages 20
approximately i myself had driven strong
scientific fashion event in the hard
sciences math and physics to be specific
so when i first got involved in fourth
of X Judaism one of the main points of
contention that has yielded was the
integration of science with traditional
Judaism which at first glance does
indeed have an enormous amount of
Congress it's the first obvious case of
conflict in this situation is that in
the holy book of the Jews which is known
as the Torah or the Bible which is
essentially zbook that the Jewish
people call it with boxes given to the
Jewish people as they were cameras
around Mount Sinai approximately 3,300
years ago the Jewish Jewish inhabitant
was given to the Jewish people by God by
the creator of the universe and then
every where all of you arms and all des
multi-level of meetings that are
contained within there are God's message
to the Jewish people so the problems of
that presents with the message that God
gave through people who win in light of
modern science if there are conflicts
what are you supposed to do about them
so a particularly strong example of what
Michael here's the conflict is in the
opening lines of the Torah is described
how the world people universe was
created in six days and of course on the
seventh day God met and according to
Jewish tradition is the man simply
release the culmination of this event
took place approximately fifty seven
hundred and fifty-four thousand years
ago so this is event an obvious problem
to anybody close the least amount of New
Year in this modern science that in that
look they're saying the world is fifteen
billion years older or whatever the
numbers are means a pendulum fifty blame
something like that so there's an
obvious problem right off the back which
was a properly I was extremely aware on
the other hand some people see this as
an example of compatibility between
science and Judaism in the sense that
the way that many Jews interpret some of
these lines in the Torah is that they're
not meant to be interpreted in their
strict literal sense creditors
interprets as containing some sort of
our lines of what the idea is but then
the deeper message hidden within it and
so this particular case recipe
the six days of creation as it's known
in the Torah framework what I was to do
about that so in general the way people
were depicted some sort of problem
compatibility in science of judges and
what they could say is the world radiant
of either is simply in six states and
he's excited that represented by from
six days of creation the culmination of
these mixed ages was the whole month of
creation maybe the creation of human
beings and the first human being was
created for what the system edition of
having a human soul which city which
that will human being could interact
with God that immense a place 5757 here
today so input in line that regard it's
not all that far off way mark I'm like
looking namely the human beings as as as
the civilized woman to know them to be
took place approximately 6,000 years ago
and the reason the universe took place
in the period of six stages though and
in time series 46 pages are they wasn't
billions of years our businesses
whatever it might have been does anybody
have the Torah vine large is not used as
a cycle it's not going to be a textbook
that will teach a person kind of new
biology or hazard physics or mathematics
or whatever whether or not someone to
leave anything of designers from the
charge of another ball but it's not many
defense and therefore when it comes to
baby questions such as the age of the
universe and having it from about basic
scientific questions the tour is not
going to place where one we looked at it
since determined focused on a completely
different idea focusing on what is the
purpose of our radius was the purpose
are sincere how are you
learn to relate to God how client might
disappear society is also a means of
what God interacted with the earth God
runs in the world through science
through nature and that is another way
that God please do the Torah is
essentially telling them that the waves
God has given them instructions in terms
of our strategies with our fellow human
beings our interactions of the world our
interactions God in some way or another
these interactions also have to comply
with the rules of science and that in
some wherever they don't fit in real
life well then something has to give
something just won't work so as far as
the general question of compatibility
most people do not have probable
compatibility of de toros with science
because the two are looked at it as
almost like two things that are sort of
found each other by and not necessarily
each other head on so so the conflicts
that might appear to be there can always
be sort of worked out as far as science
mentioned in the Torah itself by and
large there is no position to the Torah
other than the description of creation
as derivatives that are described the
only thing that would remotely remember
local temple science is in certain
disease that laser somewhat significant
role in tourism a disease which appears
to example through the visa tony has
leprosy and the only difference is
whether it is a biological release due
to I even know what I'm do some sort of
affection boxes everywhere since loved
easily do too but the disease mentioned
in the Torah which starred questions in
view not as a biological disease
references
the experience mainly due to experience
defects of character the disease will
affect them physically in general
distance away that Torah Torah Judaism
meets science where science and
describing the physical universe that's
where tourists start describing the
spiritual universe and the jeweler met
complement each other okay but my name
is father Jim Reese I am a Jesuit priest
a professor here at Santa Clara
University i've been here since 1975 and
i teach courses generally around the
area of the christian origin and the
history of christian spirituality um so
I'm a bit different than my colleagues
here today and that I don't have a a
church where I am served as pastor
associate I'm all right I do go out
regularly to churches and a fifth in the
local community particularly the parish
of the Queen of Angels in cupertino and
then also I have the privilege of
presiding at liturgy pier at Santa Clara
University in the mission church but my
primary work is study and teaching
before I begin and address the questions
I'd like to really thank the Muslim
Students Association for organizing
arranging these opportunities for us to
get together I think that it is a
wonderful thing that they do and it
allows us as well to come to a better
understanding of each other and to share
that with all of me tiesto great
gratitude to the Muslim students here at
Santa Clara I would agree with many
things that what I might have said when
I look particularly at the second
question is any science mentioned in
your holy book or tradition well it all
depends with
what we mean by science there was a time
in Christianity of course when we would
say yes there is science fairs champion
in the Roman tradition the Latin
tradition which simply means knowledge
what kind of knowledge is there is there
understanding but that term science has
really come to be understood in a very
particular way today and in the agreeing
with Rabbi Meir in a way that is
understood today there is nothing about
science in survival either in the Hebrew
Scriptures which of course are a part of
our holy book as well as the Christian
scriptures science I think as we see it
is really a defined set of methods and
these methods are either hypothetically
deductive meaning that they attempt to
understand the natural processes of
physical the biological the chemical and
cosmological universe or the science can
also use historical methods and near the
attempt to understand biological
chemical geological and cosmological
history of the earth and ultimately of
the universe so in this sense the Bible
doesn't try to use these kinds of
hypothetical or strictly scientific
historical method the science of the
Bible as our tradition as rabbi said
really tells us about God and God's
relationship to the world and the
universe it answers in a way a much more
important question to us ultimately
about our life who are we how are we
with God who are we with each other in
life of our relationship to God and God
is our Creator God creates the world as
good
we can then find God in this good world
by paying attention to it taking it
seriously studying it and and by doing
so we will come to understand the
goodness of this world created by God
and that will point us towards goodness
Excel since we've got in the Catholic
tradition of the time apart we speak of
this as the principle of sacrament
allergy that means that everything that
is is in some way a visible sign and
also a bearer of God's presence and
action in the world and so paying
attention to that studying that can
bring us closer to the god with presence
and to the God who is active in a sense
then there's no strictly secular science
science itself can be a means of
understanding who got it and how God
acts with regard to the interpretation
of the scripture it has been you know
Christians have found themselves all
over the place in that throughout the
centuries at time there was a conflict
between science and religion and for
some denominations of Christianity today
there continues to be a sort of conflict
between the two but in the the Catholic
tradition certainly we do not be a
conflict between the two because one
tells us about the much more important
ultimate questions of our relationship
of God and the other helps us understand
the physical universe the cultivation
not on working in the name of God the
merciful the compassionate their
witnesses there's no god but allah and
muhammad sallallahu Senator's office and
I I think it's very tempting being the
3rd after 2 to kind of look at some of
the things that were said before me but
I'm going to attempt to resist that
temptation just part of religion right
resisting temptation i think i would say
initially what otherwise said about the
idea of defining science modern science
as it's being practiced in the west and
really now all over the world I think
it's deep being compatible with the
Islamic teaching and i would say that
because of the results that it produces
in other words from a muslim perspective
there are certain limits and boundaries
which are very clearly defined in the
pond about human behavior and the idea
of transgressing those boundaries is
considered a transgression against God
and against God's order in terms of is
is long and compatible with science if
we define science as truth then
absolutely not it would have to be in
harmony the science because the Muslim
beliefs is that it's almost from the
truth in fact one of the names of God is
on how which means the truth and
therefore what comes from God must be
true and also given that God has made a
rational creatures and creatures that
use the intellect what God has told us
about God and about God's creation must
be understood through the intellect if
the intellect cannot understand it then
this would be unfair on God's part to
give us an intellect and then to give us
things deeply in congruence with the
intellect
standing and force us to believe those
things going against what our own
intellect tell us is true now here you
move into another problem which is what
if the intellect is not capable of
discerning the truth because we are
deeply self delusional creatures human
beings can delude themselves to believe
the most incredible thing to give an
example somebody once took a after log
astrological chart of a murder a
murderer in in France and it was saying
what a wonderful person you're
intelligent you're clever you're witty
you're deeply compassionate towards
other human beings and this man had
killed like about 50 people and he sent
it to several different people put an ad
in the newspaper and said free horoscope
sent to this address and he got letters
back telling people that they had to
believe in astronomy astrology before
that but when they got this thing they
said it's so fitted their personality
that that it must be true so the point
being is that we can do it ourselves
into believing many many things so then
what then is the criterion for belief
now from the Muslim perspective I think
we need to divide science into two basic
areas and one would be what would be a
formal system and a formal system of
science deals with proofs and it deals
with axioms and proof so you have an
acronym and then you prove something
based on your AG names like geometry
would be a good example of a formal
system now the nature of formal
scientific systems is they don't deal
with content in other words geometry
will never tell you why something why a
point is that which has no depth or
breasts or why a circle is equidistant
and whatever the scientific definition
that geometry gives us it will not tell
us why so it does not go into what what
would return the structural system which
begins to look at content and to explain
content from a Muslim perspective
Muslims are notorious historically for
accepting formal system geometry
astronomy our panel systems that measure
things many of the Muslims were great
great astronomers and how r is me one of
the greatest mathematicians that ever
lived develop the logarithm which is
actually local rhythm is from his name
at holidays me which in Latin was and
logarithms that's how it was interested
we know almost I am the famous who's
known in the West verse poetry he's not
known in east for his poetry known in
the east for his mathematical
computation he developed a very precise
and exact calendar so the point is is
that within formal systems the Muslims
have never had a problem whether where
they have a problem is when you move
into structural system which is
explaining content and no longer
describing form because science can
either describe something it can prove
something or it can explain something
when it describes something it's simply
descriptive science anatomy physiology
you can just describe the anatomy of a
liver when you move into a system which
then begins to explain the function of a
liberal of the purpose of a liver you
can have a hypotheses and the hypothesis
might be valour it might be invalid
depending on the data that's collected
in all of these things so from the
Muslim perspective when you begin to
explain things in which you have really
no arena or no no really grounding in
that explanation then the Muslims would
say no you have transgressed your
boundaries you are not allowed to
venture into this area and certainly for
instance in the in the modern world
what's happening now with genetic
altering that's going on we've just if
if the report is true and we always have
to wait and see you exactly what's
happened but if the report is true that
in Scotland they have cloned a sheep
well from the Muslim point of view this
is the transgression it's a gross
transgression from the Western
scientific point of view it is not it is
as
another step in the progress of mankind
that we have moved another step closer
to more exact knowledge about the world
were living in the Quran says do not
change the creation of god that's
ability of happiness do not change the
creation of god that is a command for
the Muslims and it is in the the
imperative form in the Arabic language
do not change the creation of God and it
says in the pond that the devil will
encourage human beings to change the
creation of God and the devil says what
I elated I'm not a lot they will change
the creation of a lot they will alter
the creation of God so the Muslim see
this as a gross transgression and
therefore this type of science which has
been separated from the sacred is
unacceptable from a Muslim perspective
the Muslim sees the scientist as a
believer first and foremost and that
when the scientist is divorced from
belief and from the moral and ethical
boundaries of the Islamic traditions
then the Muslim seeds that scientists as
a transgressor and so there is no doubt
that the Muslims would would say that
science that the Quran encourages such
the Quran many many verses in the Quran
tell us not just to reflect on
theological issues reflect on scientific
issues and in answer to is their science
in our text the Quran has many many
verses directly related to science and
more reasonable tires the french
scientist has a very clearly articulated
in several books that the interesting
things and knows about the Quran is
unlikely at the chair rocks and the New
Testament that the Quranic scientific
statements are consistent with with
modern science and modernize I mean by
their what they have shown us to be true
for instance in the pond it says a ton
young go-getter some Elijah Wood are
haven't they looked at the heavens and
the earth and then it says Kenneth
Ruskin of a second album they were bound
together and we
word which you spoke up an album that
means we exploded then put something in
Arabic is the hernia it's an explosion
of breaking out of boundary and then it
has the government and that equalization
height and then from water we created
every living thing now here is a Quranic
verse that is is very consistent with
the modern theory of the beginning of
creation and what's interesting for the
Muslim is is the big bang theory was
forced upon the sign to the community I
mean there's a lot of people that would
like to say it's kind of Christian
sciences of you know know they had a big
problem with it initially because they
did not want to admit the idea that the
universe was not eternal and in fact
Einstein in his initial general theory
of relativity in his initial equation
what what he discovered was that they
actually indicated an unstable universe
in other words mathematically it either
had to be expanding or contracting and
that bothered him so much that he put
correctors equations in there to make it
stable so that he could say that the
universe would eternal and he later
admitted that that was a mistake because
the scientific evidence did indicate
that in fact the universe's is in stable
the unstable edwin hubble discovered
that the universe in fact is expanding
and the and now which the research was
done right down here in stanford with
the backdrop radiation coming into the
earth which were the effects of the
original explosion of the Big Bang so
the floor on very clearly makes that
statement about the universe and in fact
says well Samantha naina have the eighth
and the heavens we have created with
power were in natomas your own and we
are expanding them quite very clearly in
airplane and we are expanding them in
the the fifth century sixth century
commentator on the Quran who even hacia
he was an Angela theme from Spain said
that this must mean somehow that the
universe is growing now this is I'm is
the 6th century a scholar being forced
to look at the
the language and what are the thing and
to take it literally and he had no
evidence for that now it's interesting
that say Thomas Aquinas in the Middle
Ages said that it is only true police
that we believe it is only through faith
that we believe that the universe had a
beginning because it cannot be proven
and this was the position of the
Catholic Church because the agree father
said no it was eternal so here within
the Quran itself no it tells us that the
universe is created and gives us a very
interesting description of how it
actually took place it also talks about
the Big Crunch which is as the Quran
says very clearly that as we as we have
spread out the universe so me will roll
it up and the also the entropic meltdown
of the universe is described very
clearly in the Quran it says that the
earth in the end of time will boil over
so the water will literally boil over
and that there will be a cheap
everywhere and this is what they called
a great keep down of the universe when
the major of entropy of the pieces is
moving out to a constant state and this
is a heat melt down for the universe
this again is in the pot on the Quran
has very clear descriptions of
embryology in fact that the Prophet
Muhammad was once asked what determines
the male of the female and he said there
is a race between the male of water that
this is his language of the seventh
century the male water and the female
walk and the one that gets there first
and he said quite literally yet the saga
men sir we were not as ever did they
will race by the the water of the mail
in the water flume female and the one of
the surfer will determine what it is now
we know the x and the y chromosome now
the x is the female from the bone to why
is the male coma zone and the one that
gets there first will determine whether
the child is a male or a female the
Prophet Muhammad said when he broke his
back he used to break it on date which
is sugar
photos and he said that Mahama was
tended at her with Tabitha raja oh god
my thirst has been quenched and my veins
have been soaked my veins have been
soaked with nutrients with sugar and you
can do as you do a glucose test on
fasting person at the instant that the
sugar gets to the tongue you can do a
six tests and blood sugar goes up
immediately because there was going to
immediate dispersion of glucose within
the body it's almost instantaneous it's
quite extraordinary the Prophet Mohammed
also we learn in school that Thomas
Harvey discovered the circulation of
blood even the thieves who was aids
preceded him by about six hundred years
talked about the circulation of blood
but we also have a tradition from the
Prophet Mohammed in the chiffon i HED
tiffany as in the jetty at them chiffon
Satan flows in the body of Adam through
the flowing pathways of the blood right
and the the the dominant belief was the
blood with stationary it was not moving
in the body and he clearly articulated
the movement and I could go on because
there really are extraordinary
scientific explanations in the Quran of
many many things and inside keith moore
who is a very well-known embryologist
has written the textbook that is used in
several universities in the united
states when he read about the history of
embryology saying that if there was no
history until the microscope was
discovered as somebody actually in
arabia wrote him a letter saying your
flight roams the Quran mentions very
specific details about embryology keith
moore took it quite seriously and looked
into it and found in fact and he
actually has stated in his most recent
edition of his book on embryology which
is used at the UCLA Medical School that
the qur'anic description of the
embryonic creation of the fetal cells
and the movement
complete fetus is consistent with what
we know in modern embryology and it
would have been impossible for a human
being to have that knowledge in the
seventh century by other than some type
of intuition or interpret divine
inspiration and he said and I have no
other explanation for it so I with that
I think I'll just comes earlier when you
said that the triumph that sort of just
read one on relative really has no
business doing though he transgressed
for instance in the case of the cloning
I think would be a good example with
that jr. some awesome items was a
similar conclusion yet well accepted
that scientists viewed as a form of the
truth and there were how to be
compatible with the truth that expressed
in the labyrinth so what what is is can
truth be wrong because the
transgressions in camberley to 10 of
stuff then it on but it's true they did
it they closed the sheep and and they're
probably going to keep on closing more
sheep work or whatever going with what
they're going to people they want people
it hasn't really that I want you guys
out so uh so if it works then I believe
you would agree to this that there's
some elements
truth there there's something real and
true that it's not safe so so how do you
reconcile them assuming that the truth
is fine but the fact that it goes
against what crash would be perceived as
the truth expressed by Islam well I
acted there's some kind of for me I mean
what you're articulating there's there's
some basic flaw here that I thing is
that for instance it is true that a a
gun is fired into the human heart a 38
caliber will definitely kill that person
but but that doesn't mean that you know
to do it is trip or to do it is in fact
you know the idea that the science that
is enabling people to do these things
might certainly be based on demonstrable
proof and demonstrable truths but that
does not mean that that action the
subsequently result from that knowledge
are true or are are worthy of doing you
see what I mean in other words I think
that you know if we can genetically
altered things if we can genetically
clone things that the knowledge that has
enabled us are empowered us to do that
is a type of truth I mean it's either
true or assault if it's true then then
it will be consistent right with with
what we know and what we're able to do
with it but I don't think that that
knowledge itself is a permission to
transgress boundaries in other words I
might know something to be true in
relations just to cause an effect in the
world but it's true that if I punch
somebody that that creates a certain
effect on that person but the action
itself is divorced from the truth of my
knowledge of what what happens when the
action is done so that you know I think
it's very important to separate the idea
of knowledge itself and the knowledge
that we have and what we do with that
College do you see what I mean I think
you think there's an objective truth
they can call sheet at the fact that
well I don't know he is a back to me is
so amended it that an objective truth
but there's a certain sense is a
different type of truth Michael my
father who this is truth or a hora moral
truth that says whatever the gym with
this knowledge when we did a quick
should be using and everything working
for work this is the point and the
Prophet Muhammad says oh god I ask you
for useful knowledge and I think refuge
in you from harmful knowledge because
truth as we know for verbally is a
double-edged sword it can work for us or
it can work against us and it's very
dangerous because when it's in the hands
of people that really have no moral
grounding and many Sciences don't and I
think a scientist that could develop
napalm does not have a moral grounding
and yet we have research scientists in
this country that work in defense that
work on developing more and more
sophisticated weapons to destroy human
being the Prophet Muhammad forbade us to
kill with fire we cannot kill another
human being with fire it is prohibited
in islam and by analogy the muslim
scholars have said that nuclear bombing
is a type of killing people with fire
and that is impermissible now the
Catholic Church interestingly enough in
the Middle Ages one of the post close a
crossbow was an unethical form of
killing another human being in other
words they did have a concept that you
go something could argue all introduced
me to cross ball its shooting it with an
arrow
you know you're killing the person well
the idea was but that there's some
nobility when when men go out to fight
there is a nobility in how we fight
there was a general in the Pentagon who
when the Iraqi they found out there were
88,000 by their own admittance there
were a thousand soldiers that were
buried alive with bulldozers this
Pentagon the general says there's no
noble way to kill people right well I
was totally disagree i think the samurai
warrior would certainly disagree because
part of their training was to learn the
art of fighting nobly that there is a
way that human beings act within each
other even when we go to war together
and I know that the that the Christian
tradition certainly has a rules that
relate to in their in their cannon of
rules of war that relate to fighting
noses and I know that also the Jewish
tradition has its laws that relate to
war also so I think you know the point
is yes that we do have knowledge and we
can do extraordinary things with that
knowledge but you know where do we go
visit what permission do we have you
know and and I think probably the most
dangerous inquiry for me about genetic
cloning is this we go back to eugenics
this is Hitler I mean this goes back to
who decides what is the deformity and
what you know who decides how we you
know we clean up the gene pool who
decides what what are inferior genes
that we don't want to have out there and
we've got people saying that the black
people are at the the positively skewed
end rather lately skewed end of the bell
curve that they're inferior people
through intelligence well maybe we don't
want into inferior people around you
know maybe we should look at the genes
that make them in fear and we can
those from the gene pool I mean we do
have knowledge but how are we going to
use this knowledge I can't help myself
but think about the noble warrior I'm
gonna start record damn I can't help but
think are the Klingon warp who
apparently is 57 died nobly and every
day is a good day to die see that that
was better that we not fight and have
not been at each other in the first
place I agree they the the issue of
chroming and what is point toward
exactly that we can have a knowledge we
have a probability in science and
technology to do things but should we
should we use this knowledge
neuroscience what does it lead us toward
what kind of people does it make us into
or how is it common with meeting a child
of God be making uniqueness and likeness
of God so the whole issue is a pony is
really a strong ethical and moral
question what do we become we spent in
excess I think that is
compression easily in whatever negative
unforeseen circumstances of using
technology like that such as doing it so
they're just using the questions I think
built in but perhaps in several it's
acknowledged it is true it's what do we
do it is how do we use it should we even
pursue it that's that's the major
question and I think what we need the
issue here can deploy the goal for
justice team from what perhaps would be
considered the Jewish point of view even
though it's such a new field the Jewish
point of view hasn't really been
formulated something that came out
Saturday last week or something like
that though they had time to sit down
and think about what their position is
going to be honest so I'm kind of
talking something to tempt off the top
of my head responsive questions and by
the top contender chronicles of course
of major ethical problem is there's
another factor that they come to the
place in any ethical for reviewers which
is that whatever laws let's say progress
pounces or somatic Sweeney or the
religious communities try to impose on
scientists in a certain sense are not
going to make a bit of difference
because I if America is a go by these
laws which which i think is going to be
a far pretty unlikely unlikely scenario
because you always have a private lab
and don't happen again sir to the
government they can do it
doing anything other countries out there
that have the knowledge America does not
have monopoly on on biological knowledge
so comes the discovery building in the
government so who live in seconds
dollars per cent Regus holding office if
anybody's guess he probably lived in
America but there you go it's got them
and the nominees comes out there they're
capable of doing the better language in
the original articles of the cloning
thing came in indy nature magazine was
essentially problem almost like a recipe
for how to do it and then anybody out
there you got the right equipment is I
think it's redic ripples will be quite
expensive but if you have right
equipment that you could do it yourself
start calling cheese and then know how
much Japan and who knows what's next I
think we all know what receptors after
chimpanzee so the ethical problems that
anybody might bring up that we should do
this and we should Suzanne in the
servants are irrelevant in the sense
then they're going to do it anymore let
me out there no matter what laws and
come up with what regulations to come up
with would invite you come on somebody
else is going to do it so reminder is
the real issue that the ethical
community is the politically testament
is how harbans want to deal with this
thing in the worst-case scenario because
it's going to happen the eugenics of the
problem of eugenics is going to happen
out there is I don't know one year
whatever it is when you can play the
border what types of child you want for
it and then everybody seems to be
streamlined a lot of certain lines of
festive expertise how this is the world
and just really going going to deal with
them are we going to learn live with it
are we going to go somehow ionizers
where those delivered to get away design
what are whatever give you assistance I
be in I believe the Jewish you on this
would be the kids as from like a reality
it's there in the same sense that the
nuclear power and nuclear bombs are
there and we haven't learned in some
capacity areas and to use them to the
cross manner and that's whatever laws he
plays on them are not going to matter to
the person next door who does mobilize
the laws that I'm like most internet
leaders of an example Judaism's of
tampering with things that we shouldn't
cameras it's the case of work done on TV
bro has colitis which means the mixture
of certain types of peace where you
can't plant a great line so close to a
vegetable or something like that you
can't make certain things that should be
mixed together so its provision of
course where you can't plant a great
line so close to a vegetable or
something like that you can't make
certain things that should be fixed
together so its provision of course we
really should get into we really should
not be cameras in kind of stuff but once
it's out there and one of the rest of
the world is using it we also really
also have to learn to use it in ways
that might be advantageous for them
disregard to the clone how and the
question would come up okay we've done
it this long a person suppose I do
indeed the secret of the question for
the religious community vengeance how do
we treat Clark you can be and then how
do we then exert influence and forth in
the comes in the community about how we
treat that as a as a person and not as
though something for spare parts or have
some somehow less than human so I agree
is that one these things are done in an
emergency situation even though you
didn't you and you would not want to be
involved in the activity what is done
the palace is there you're on a dif
different puzzle and way to make people
and I think that the religious person
always with intention with his culture
with the world the general world around
them that does not share their
resistance and particularly maybe in
science service some to some degree has
been outside religious faith I think you
know with this issue again going back to
the way the Muslims would look at it is
that everything any newly introduced
thing into the cultural news has to be
looked at from the perspective of two
things one is benefit and the others
arms because this the police is that the
Islamic law the sake of all of Islam is
absolutely there for the benefit
human beings it is for no other purpose
and this is by consensus of Muslim
scholars that every law and injunction
that God has given us he has given us
that law for our own benefit and any
prohibition he is prohibited it's
because there's harm in it now for
instance is to give an example warning
in the product clearly says in wine is
benefit for people but enid is harm and
its arm is greater than its benefit so
avoid it very simple clear so we have
sizes now that tell us you know it's
good have a glass of wine every night
you know it actually lower your blood
pressure it'll prevent a cardiac black
and build up and you'll have lower
higher HDL and and and give us all the
scientific explanation well you know
you're also gonna have a lot of people
that have cirrhosis of the liver and are
going to become alcoholics and you're
going to have tens of thousands of
people die on the highways because of
drunk drivers you're going to have lives
that are ruined you're going to have a
child abuse you're going to have
pregnant problems with women now we know
just one little drink can I can possibly
harm the fetus of a child so again the
Quran would say yes that there is
benefit in life but there is great harm
now the cloning of sheep and Scotland
even casual cashmere sweaters might
become very cheap you know n and I
happen to like cashmere sweater but I
can't afford them right so yeah that
that's beneficial I'm not going to the
you know the cashmere it's harmful for
that right there going to be a little
ticked off if they get to me he's got a
shoots up there being cloned right in
fact the Scottish Kashmir Wobs might you
know a chance to stop the process from
the beginning but again what is the harm
of this and part of the harm I mean a
good example good is there as it's very
curious attempts at developing a
oil-eating yer
micro to clean up oil spills this is a
very serious attempt by scientists and
what their I've use that when there's an
oil spill we introduce the bacteria into
the area and boom they'll eat up all the
oil well what do they eat up after they
finished with the oil spill right
another example is the the killer bee a
lot of people don't know that the killer
bees was actually an experiment that
that got out of hand down in South
America where perhaps they don't have as
stringent laboratory conditions that
they do in the Silicon Valley right and
these got out of a cross there was a
scientist literally crossing African
bees with with Brazilian bees and some
of them got away and now we've got a
killer bee problem which is actually
quite serious and a lot of people are
unaware of this another good example is
the the wise grows widespread use of
antibiotics in this country it's just a
phenomenal we're having microbial
changes going on in in the india in the
bacterial world that are phenomenal in
relation to their impact on the human
beings we have harmless now is actuated
it was completely harmless in the 1940s
they are causing most of the Nova camiel
deaths in hospitals like pseudomonas
which is a bacteria that in the nineteen
forty was innocuous was completely
harmless back here but it has mutated
because of widespread use of penicillin
to the point where it's killing
thousands of people every year so again
we have a human being that according to
the Quran one that will teach them in an
end the end of Aviva you have given aids
been given a very small amount of
knowledge and yet we have the human
beings that is the hubris and wonderful
Greek tragedies right it's always hubris
that destroys the human being in Greek
tragedies and this is what human beings
have we have become so arrogant in in
what we're doing in the world that we
think that we can literally do whatever
we want with impunity without any fear
of the repercussions of that and
scientists
who in many cases are deeply egotistical
people that are really in search of the
nobel prize of fame and glory and will
follow venues that will take them to so
we don't have the humble pie of
individual who is seeking to understand
the creation of God we have an
individual that literally wants to play
God in his laboratory by creating a new
form of life now the Quran very clearly
says in the Medina says the tournament
do need F believe a lot of the four eva
the nasty method estenio devil an
analogy has been struck for you human
being so listen up it says literally
listen attentively surely though you
call upon beside God they cannot create
a fly even if all of them came together
to do it and if any life was taken from
that fly they could not return that life
to the plot how weak is the speaker and
the salt you see now this very clearly
report on that there is some human
impulse in mankind to walk to the
permission right the Promethean nature
of man I'm going to oppose God I mean
permitted sacrifice his livers being
eaten out and and Zeus strap him to a
rock to suffer for giving knowledge to
mankind any boasting I want mankind to
rebel against the gods and this again is
this satanic little character who comes
in he's the Whisperer and he's the
Whisperer go ahead do it you can do it
you see in the model role people ask why
should we do it because it's doable you
see this as if this is some kind of
ethical justification no we can do it
why find the mountain to prove that we
can do it wycombe the sheet to show that
we can do it or the Quran says that when
the earth brings forth all of its riches
and it becomes ornamented like the sky
has become ornamented and which is
interesting because satellite pictures
now show the earth looks literally like
a
because of the sky and it says well run
the I hoo-ha unknown club you know Nadia
and the inhabitants of the earth think
that they're all powerful over it they
think they finally conquered nature and
this again is part of this Greek
sickness that used nature as
antagonistic to the human being because
they believed that nature was they were
embodiment of divine energies that were
antagonistic with man the Quranic
worldview is that Sahara diplomatic son
Elijah Wood of God has subjugated for
you everything that's in the heavens in
the earth it is at your disposal the
Quran says that was that he that he has
placed everything in the earth for your
benefit and if for your benefit
including the cove of snakes which can
kill us but it's there because it's
there something there's a wisdom that
there's a fellow as Aristotle would
habits there's there the purpose in that
creation and everything has purpose and
so our goal is to be humble before God
and before God's creation the Quran says
that the service of God are those who
tread lightly on the earth a bad Barack
men are living in turn out of Oklahoma
they tread lightly on the earth what a
beautiful description treading lightly
on your help grossly we're treading on
the earth today literally we're setting
on it with bulldozers and with bombs and
with dynamite we have no reverence for
our own mother the Prophet Mohammed said
be vigilant about this earth because
she's your mother and just as the mother
has life of piety sort of the earth has
right society you know so I just think
that we're really in a dangerous
predicament and I don't fully accept
these ideas are going to do it anyway
and this is for me this is you know we
can say you know that well genocide is
part of the human conditions are always
going to do it
there is no reason why there should be
genocide and when the Islamic law is
being implemented in the world you will
not find any historical records of
Muslims committing genocide against some
other people you will not find it
historically on the wreck i guarantee
you and people will say what about the
church in armenia the church in armenia
were the young turks and they were very
very distant from islamic takers law by
that time the muslims have always and
it's not because we're ontological e
better than people it's not because we
have some special scatters that were
chosen about other people no it's
because we literally have parameters
with which God has commanded us to stay
and a vibrant in and if we abide within
them we are protected when we transgress
them the four answers don't blame
anybody but yourself when when calamity
striking let us not go pink scientists
to directly it so that that religious
person is a patrolman versus be a
scientist or even to be a doctor
certainly as you say science can be is
the hood or pieces and and much of a
testing acting forward and I would not
want I'm not doing that I'm not going
ever again I'm not completely convinced
of that as much I mean this is the
arguments it's time to put forward and
the argument size of support is that
religion is bad for people because it's
left up in a superstitious state and
many scientists are deeply devoted to
the destruction of religion in fact the
man talkin to the various well known
evolutionist just recently he was
awarded the humanist of the Year award
and in his acceptance speech said you
know people create organizations to
destroy the virus aids because it's so
dangerous and he said what we need is an
organization to destroy the virus of
station because this is the most
dangerous thing that is confronting the
human animal
right and I think there are a lot of
scientists the truly believe that the
religion needs to that you know we were
in the magic apparently ball to the
religious stage and now we're on the
rational scientific stage and we need to
just do away with all of this hogwash
really get rid of it it has no relatives
just holding people up and it's
superstition and this is in no way I
mean the scientists are honored in the
Islamic traditions I'm in no way
intimating that Sciences is not
something no the doctors one of our
greatest theologians among chef they
said that really knowledge is reduced to
two things knowledge of God and
knowledge of medicine because one
benefits the soul and the other benefits
the body and man is nothing other than
body and soul it's a beautiful
articulation of that so doctors have
always been honored as scientists that
enhanced human life should be honored
but scientists that degrade human life I
have no place in my heart for respect or
dignity for them
it has been a extremely big topic within
few generations since Darwin came up to
experience specifically the last about
30 years ago here is my five by and
large most Orthodox Jews will take a
position of all hardly rejecting
Darwin's theory of evolution because it
comes into such blatant conflict with
tutorials so the viewpoint that i'm
going to put forth is not necessarily
that of the bulk of the jewish scholars
out there it's my own viewpoint and i
would label it a minority viewpoint
within orthodox judaism dad Darwin came
up with a theory that species involved
they evolved to almost confidence and
certain genetic elements get in there
like that place among humans into the
whole thing and after billions of years
or so as a new species is form so Darwin
I don't recall vision creatures came up
in the periodic system one sort of God
roses or something like that and did not
stop to the garden and he's expanding
series to include human beings the
Jewish you are on the juices I believe
concerted garden would be to follow that
everything Darwin says as far as natural
selection and over the Torah would have
no problem every single thing the
darkest day with one comes to Torah
concision purpose that there is some
sort of
everyone out here the universe world
creation is all games for a specific
goal and evolution is in a certain sense
is the natural corner of being led along
that path the problem top level when you
throw human being into the equation and
the conclusion the logical conclusion
the dark occasions which I believe most
scientists who come to st. Lucia most
biologists 13f comforters conclusion is
that human beings are no exception and
the human being just like frogs came
from some earlier acted in it and that
everybody else if you came from
something else is going down so
different game the logical suggested
human beings came from faces or human
beings and he has some sort of common
ancestor some I don't know what my
favorite some chicken us handling things
back in Africa some sort of common
ancestor and conclusion to come to the
Magus we are really something other than
a fairly exam and intelligent form of an
animal which is the pneumatic promoted
almost directly from ultimately in
universities and planning in the world
general so this is the part where
historically has major problems with the
Torres would you have solutions not have
to notice confidence absorbing the
service to every 30 nautical but
evolution which was not a random process
that just kind of talisman and that's
the way it is total a chance some sort
of molecules they say say say by random
who knows what they start to be taken
formative years out that was as the
random process it's looked at the
process which is guided by god and this
is God's method of assessment sticking
god panting to the world and meeting it
a lot of certain town and all all the
teachings on the earth are guided
violence aunty hands to the forum at
least when it comes he was being a big
acceptance misconception estate prices
lately prescribed by quite obvious in
tutorial Selma where says that was not
created human being he created them
include unique matter from the creation
of all other creatures he breezed into
Napoli install to he created them in His
image so all of these things to taste
idea of Satan human beings even though
their body the body we have their
striking resemblance to that case and
even though it's part of the same than
the human body is evolved from the
bodies of some little 8y creature that's
was not necessarily any sort of cosmic
equipped with religious but when it
comes to the other facets of human
heating the human family name is the
soul that for Judaism with a station
with sciences if you're going to be
balanced Logan said it we're not only
but a fortunately separate robin you
haven't say that God in some way had
some sort of our extreme or camp in the
greatest human being and that the lack
of a better word that would need to be a
soul that's examples in some way
image of God but everyone is my large we
could fit the holding in there biography
evolution so this design for the earth
it would appear it's been evolved into
that whatever is responsible human being
whether they have alternate no problem
is it or not except for the expiry of
elements of design in order to do that
in their way came from any other animal
the almond toe we were all the elements
of ability to recognize ourselves
awareness god awareness of our own
creation that is not a product of
evolution the matter regarding or
anybody ever documented other people say
that is not a product of evolution that
is a product of the hand of God whenever
there's a question of evolution comes
upon all reminded of a song that I've
heard enough in a movie that was showing
various churches in America and one
search of a of evangelical churches
young group was singing a song and the
song went something like this I'm milk
into the monkey in a moment no chains to
me I certainly get a queen of the truth
and certainly in the long history of
regenerated Darwin's theories there's
been antagonism tortoise and there
moorish ma something similar to a Meyer
is talking about interesting Pope John
Paul and his address to the Pontifical
Academy of Sciences said that evolution
is more than a theory and account and
can account for the physical dimensions
of human life which is pretty much less
cynical and my other saying but cannot
account for if the spiritual aspect of
being human trials doesn't address that
cracker it's not that it doesn't have
the tools talk about who doesn't want to
say is meant to do the Jesuits here we
are to show that in the early part of
this century try to recognize some of
that tension that very problem in your
relationship eccentric please science
particularly evolution and Christianity
actor category and he looked at
evolution and he said what do I see
people in the Big Bang a direction a
trust toward something as something that
that the drop is for days consciousness
he sees that there is a lot of
complexity consciousness at work in the
universe and we as things become more
and more complex that is more and more
individual things working together of a
bit of wine there is inevitably a march
towards very very consciousness until we
are on acting the human conscious
what they are see them is a geosphere
Easter of the Earth's biosphere here
life itself where there is a quantum
jump from the Animus things to survive
yourself and then an enormous jump to
what he calls the novel's here the whole
realm of the human mind their business
and he thistle as a scientist I see this
direction where are we going healthiest
evolution stop and he will say no this
law of complexity consciousnesses put in
English by God and the movement on the
next level of evolution is similar to
all those that would have before it is
now drawing together of all these moms
all these unions there is and souls into
unity into one this is is the vision
into this vision and dream and have
something that we are moving forward in
a tiny tiny bit by our composition I'm
always fascinated by capitulation to to
evolution on the part of religious
practitioners because I think that
probably no other ideas is more in
synthetic ille to the religious
traditions than
the idea of evolution as it's understood
by neo tolerance or da realist I think
that every spiritual tradition Martin
Ling said that every spiritual tradition
teaches the evolution not evolution that
people are actually getting worse not
getting better and this would be the
idea and most traditions of you know
Adam and then the fall of man that the
man has fallen from from come you know
from from paradise from the garden and
then what needs to take place in each
generation is a spiritual a position
which is vertical not horizontal it
isn't move back to God and this is the
challenge of every human generation in
terms of looking at the idea of
evolution I think it's important look at
in historical context I don't feel
qualified I think what we need to have
somebody that really could particul
eight this this talk and it's
unfortunate things been going on for
over a hundred years it really has it's
absurd almost but there are other
religious arguments that went on for
several hundred years before they were
finally kind of ironed out and and
that's why I can wait you know it might
not be in my lifetime but as a human
being I'm willing to wait because i just
given the nature of say Thomas Kuhns
ideas a serious scientific revolution is
that a theory is is populated and then
anomalies arise and those families are
either dealt with by the theory or they
result in attention within the
scientific community that necessitates a
new series to deal with the anomalies
and then anomalies arise again so within
the scientific community I mean you
could see quite clearly that each
generation of scientists believe that
they are at the cutting of truth the
19th century positions that were
leeching people and bleeding the people
to death were actually the men of
science of their age
they believed that this was the most
advanced thing that they could do and
yet a modern position of the looks of
that is is in deep shock at the
stupidity of it well I think probably a
hundred years from now if there are
physicians around they'll be in deep
shock about the stupidity of 20th late
20th century physicians as well so this
is the nature of the scientific
community it's always looking at the
previous generation and amazed at the
things that they've come up with and I
think the Darwinism is another it's
another one of these things that will
fall by the wayside I really do and I
don't think well just to look at it from
a philosophical point of views the
Assumption with Darwinism is at the idea
of continuity the continuity needs to be
explained well this is a Newtonian world
view because Darwin was living in the
world of Newton when you get into
quantum mechanics which is where we are
in the 20th century in fact constitute
continuity is not the assumption it's
discontinuity so you could look at
evolution or you can look at the
beginning of life and human condition
from the perspective of discontinuity as
a source of continuity and then you have
a whole other problem and you can arrive
at a completely different interpretation
of how we how we got to where we are and
where we came from because the quantum
physics allows for spontaneous emergence
and for the Muslims very spontaneous
emergence in creation that they're the
point when God says gunfire could be an
idiot simple as that so we do believe in
spontaneous and immediate generation of
life and we have no problems with that
and Muslims won't and I don't think any
Muslim to understand the photon will
capitulate to that because we believe
that Adam was a prophet and if you if
you think that Adam is some kind of
mythical figure or theoretical mythical
truth that's being presented as many
many Christians believe now from am
looking perspective you are outside of
the tail of Islam so for the most from
the idea that we began as a unicellular
I mean it's just very difficult for the
Muslims
we don't accept the idea that life
simply began and it's moving and that
there's this thing called nature right
which is the scientists word for God I
mean if you take nature and and put it
into most scientific books a lot of
believers wouldn't really have a problem
with the books the sizes are deeply
embarrassed of the word nature and this
is a word God which is related to the
historical context which darden within
if you look at the dorm with a man
deeply influenced by a philosopher David
Hume and David Hume did not believe that
there should be any religious
explanation for anything in existence
she felt of miracles there's no place
for miracles in science so let's not
explain things through miracles let's
explain things through what we can see
feel and touch and this is part of the
19th century attempt in science is to
explain things by removing God
completely from the picture and then see
what we come up with well if you remove
that from the picture yes you will come
up with theories like evolution but not
me macabre move from the picture you
know it's like the graffiti says you
know neat god is dead quote me chase
than 1,900 djs dead quote dog I mean God
is not some some things that we can just
brush aside for the hoodlum no God is
cruising other guys and you have to
listen to a god says and not this is
what our own egos and what our own those
who want to literally be thrown Johnny
from his majestic place of authority in
the universe and God for us is the
creator the fashion of the Quran says
products and the best and wasaga he is
the creator the originator and the
fashioner the judge fashions creation
and we believe the Prophet Muhammad once
saw a man who was boxing with another
man and he said avoid the faith because
he was created Adam was created on the
same form now this is a clear reputation
in our own tradition that the first man
was created in his own horn qualified
Adam out of quality it's very clear in
the air batang
and we cannot given that our puppet had
said that either the Providence is is as
many people would say he's either a
well-intentioned person who invented
this thing or he's interesting things or
he's a proper from God if he's a proper
from God then we have to accept that
what he's telling us is truth and it's
not metaphorical so we literally believe
that yes God didn't create now if you
want to say well how do you explain lucy
which is a skeleton that was found sixty
percent intact and eight features and
his team as a transitional skeleton
between the eighth period in momentum
well the client says that that God in
fact created ate some men the Quran says
that God said to certain people that
transfer out so greatly cool new kara
denwa kana dv8 and ticks and the
traditional Muslim in terrestrial
transmogrification it's literally took
place and given a lot of these a great
exigent was of the belief that that that
they still continue to procreate in
other words that they're our age that
are actually descendants of human and
not humans that are descendants of age
and this is some citizens reactions
believe it where I'm not ashamed of mine
I don't need to harmonize my believes
with whatever the latest scientific fact
is you know because each generation is
going to come along with the latest
theory and then I have to rework all of
my theology and rework I mean either
it's true or it's not true not all the
interesting some who has entered into
the Islamic state I'm not raising with
them but somebody's coming to say I am
either going to accept the thing and
then restructure my own belief around
the belief of Islam or I am going to
come into the faith with my own
preconceived beliefs and notion
and we can structure my my faith
according to whatever my preconceived
beliefs work so if I'm a scientist and I
can only be a Christian if my
Christianity is in complete harmony with
whatever the latest scientific theories
are things like that is never know I
can't accept that my faith is either
true or it's not true if it is true it
is consistent with the truth now to say
well it can be interpreted in that
pulpit wherever you stop where you stop
once we allow metaphor and allegory to
come in to the Quran very clearly says
some of the verses of this book are
metaphorical and others are clear and as
for the metaphorical ones those who have
deviation their hearts follow them and
as for those who are from do sticky
topics they follow the clear signs so
once you start turning all of your books
and tradition into metaphorical sign
that is the sign of deviation in the
heart that the heart is now interpreting
the book according to one's passions
according to one's own desire so the
Muslim I mean we have to say no we and
we don't end it interesting young up in
Europe Darwinism is literally on its way
out it's very strong in America because
it's become at the ideological level
it's taught as ideology it is thought of
fact it is not a fact it is a theory it
is a theory it is called the theory of
evolution and the theory can sound great
lobsters did that a lot of people don't
believe the poor humoral theory of
medicine anymore but at the time that it
was taught if you were a scientist you
have to believe in it and the great
physician in Europe who actually burns
the book of Hippocrates was considered a
complete heretics at that time his
name's not coming to me is very well
known and he wanted to upend
distribution of the old and say no we
have to go on so Hippocrates was
appearance and some of these theories
are correct and others are wrong but the
one of the sicknesses
of Western civilization was it took
these authorities as absolute truth and
when these authorities were completely
turned upside down it becomes
iconoclastic against all authority and
this is where we're at now I mean we
attacked all authorities but really what
we're tacking most often is the
authority of tradition and what we
celebrate and what we exalt ourselves in
is whatever the dominant thing now we're
in the modern world it's here and now
forget the past and Islam says no we
honor the past we honor the past and
Islam says that the task has great
wisdom to impart to us and what modern
Western tradition Thanos the past is
something let's just discard it let's
get rid of it so I think really it's
very unfortunate that so many imposes
just to make myself perfectly clear here
I don't in any way agrees with what is
known as the fundamentalist Christian
position which is called scientific
creationism I do not believe in that at
all and I think it's actually quite
absurd and I think I would have a very
difficult time in my face if my face
taught me to do so with 6,000 years old
my face was not teaching me that the
Quran said that God created the heavens
and earth in six days and it says 1
minus enamines old and we didn't get
tired in other words God doesn't get
worn out from doing if God is either
all-powerful or he's not I need to get
tired we're in bad shape because maybe
he'll get tired of putting up with all
that the move in the direction of
religious arrogance though let us recall
the very religious people who claims to
be going along the way the religious
truth
and following long long religious
traditions when they sanction slavery
over the century they'd accept all of
our traditions have done that certain
engaged in owning even being and
treating them as something less
consuming this ideas of the dignity of
all human beings took us a while to
demonstrate and so I think our religious
who's also developed are certainly
archaeology results our understanding of
what the text means develops I'm not
sure looking we have complete absolute
control understanding the text from
repeating each other then developed the
Atlantic do not let you not really going
to garden series because of the fact
that God is the creator and garden is
the ugly 14th was the fastener I think
Sebastian's are a fan of your work of
everything what I'm not here about is
two things 1i mentor what is the
conflict regarding the Creator in
fashion and evolution okay ever want
remember two reasons is there anything
specifically in the Quran himself that
precludes the theory of evolution after
that I my point was is that when we say
that we believe in adamant the first
human being and and his companion holla
or ease we believe that they were
created in that form in other words that
they were that God created them in that
form they were created in the form of
man and it is the dignified form it is
not an it is not a form that is is
the denigrate man in fact the Quran says
karramna bani adam' we have honored
Benny Adam and and one of the
interpretations traditional is that
Benny Adam walks upright one of the
interpretations is that Benny Adam was
given an opposable thumb that is
actually a classical interpretation that
the human being can have that God has
given us the ability to use our hands in
ways that animals don't have so we
believe that this form that we are on
use the form of Adam and the prophets
told us that the worst human being was
Adam and Adam had this form he did not
have the form of of an animal he had the
form of a human being which yes there
are aspects that we share with animals
but we are merely an animal we are
called in fact the earth Arabic or the
Muslim theologians called a Cylon not a
speaking animal which which is very
different from rational animal in the
Western sense but a speaking animals
that God has honored us with speech with
the ability to speak and and I think our
difficulty with evolution is that
evolution again at its most fundamental
level is eliminating the Creator and I
think a lot of people missed this point
although there are biologists who are
Christians are biologists who are Jewish
and and might believe that god yes God
is moving in mysterious ways the Pope
just recently announced that natural
selection was one of the ways that God
works in his creation for the
evolutionist who is really really deeply
rooted in evolution this is kind of
absurd because they actually feel that
there is random selection going on in
other words there's trial and error and
this is something really important with
in evolutionary theory you have to
believe in the concept of trial and
error that that God is somehow not
really a he's not a perfect creator you
know messing around he you know in fact
I talked cartoon one of the dinosaurs
and and there was a cloud up there and
the voice coming out of
cloud saying cool and it said God as an
adolescent right and this is the kind of
idea that I think a lot of evolutionists
have that somehow you know we the
appliances as a lot of a lesson of how
to paint blessed is God's the best of
creators the most perfect of groups and
then it says quite clearly in the pond
shut up not in sauna the acting in
Kathleen we have created the human being
in the best catcher now house itself is
the creation we believe that n and it
says in the pond that Adam a dissident
was fashioned by God that God formed
Adam and so this idea that you know
we're moving from a unit failure and
again like Bashar then who i think has
some really dangerous ideas in terms of
classical theology and one of the ideas
is this idea that we're moving towards
perfection is no us fear and and one of
his ideas is that that Christ actually
came at a point where we had reached in
our evolution and his second coming
would be at a point where we are at a
higher stage of evolution which i think
is very very antithetical to a
traditional theological position that
that is that we in fact are moving down
that things are getting worse that
Christ returns when there's a war than
rumors of wars and famines and false
prophets and all the rest that human
beings actually are in a much worse
condition now than they were a thousand
years ago or two thousand from a Muslim
perspect on speaking as a Muslim we
believe that we are getting worse we are
not getting better and evolution is
based on this idea of progress that we
are moving towards a better state note
the the Islamic position very clear we
are moving down and that the end of the
human being is complete degradation but
this is the final space of the last
people on earth and the Prophet Muhammad
said the end of time will not come until
no one is left to say God God and he
said in the end of time will not come
except upon the worst people the worst
human beings and we can see now in in
modern
Erica you know when pornography is is
the number one media in this country
when human beings have reached a level
of human degradation that was beyond the
pale for classical people really i mean
just extraordinary state of affairs all
of the exploitation is going on the
world i would contest that there is more
slavery and bondage now than there ever
has been in the history of human
societies I would contest that the
grossest and greatest abuses of human
beings are taking place in all over the
world you go down to South America you
go to Africa and look and many of these
places are places that the the so-called
religious people of those places
thinking about religious righteousness
our advisors in the government and
things like this so I have know that you
know religious people or
self-righteousness or religious
self-righteousness there is one of the
age-old diseases of the human being you
know waxing self-righteous about his own
religiosity right and certainly a
terrible state to be in so I you know I
think that that is really at the crux of
it is in my tapioca Matthew essentially
intent is that they sir are going to
just keep on getting worse boom we're
heading down and it's going fast and one
of the interesting things right if you
think about it you know it's one of the
modern phenomenon is speak everything's
speeding up we're all experiencing will
speed of the downward motion is not an
outward motion as things move up to
actually slow down right so when human
things are moving up things slow down we
start becoming more tranquil more
content know people are becoming more
anxious they're becoming more wired
right I mean we don't were not content
with 286 we want 386 now we want for it
now we want pentium now we want people
now this computer is to slow you know
this why can't this a fax machine work
faster what's going on I mean this is
and the problem concept and I get it to
a mini chef on speed is from Satan you
know so we would say that the ancients a
very very ancient people Abraham was
deeply deeply spiritually evolved
individual
in a tent according to islamic tradition
and yet we believe that he was probably
one of the most enlightened and
spiritually aware human beings that has
ever existed he was also interesting how
life began according to the plan because
he asked God show me how you bring life
from the dead and God says don't you
believe Abraham and Abraham system in
the pond I believe but in order to give
some stillness to my heart I want to
witness it and God showed him how he
brought something from in a dead
inanimate to life so he was a scientist
from a Muslim perspective Abraham was a
scientist but he was a scientist that
wanted his science to increase his faith
to increase his closeness to God and and
what I see happening in the in the
modern world is the science is
distancing us from God it is a false
prophet and I believe in many ways that
that science now is in fact it is a type
of Antichrist the it is a false god and
people are taking it as a false god and
it promises it promises us salvation and
it will betray us in the end and it
might well be our destruction concerns
that the bowling center I excitement