Islam and Science Interfaith Dialogue

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Event Name: Islam and Science Interfaith Dialogue
Transcription Date:Transcription Modified Date: 5/18/2019
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and did not

stop to the garden and he's expanding

series to include human beings the

Jewish you are on the juices I believe

concerted garden would be to follow that

everything Darwin says as far as natural

selection and over the Torah would have

no problem every single thing the

darkest day with one comes to Torah

concision purpose that there is some

sort of

everyone out here the universe world

creation is all games for a specific

goal and evolution is in a certain sense

is the natural corner of being led along

that path the problem top level when you

throw human being into the equation and

the conclusion the logical conclusion

the dark occasions which I believe most

scientists who come to st. Lucia most

biologists 13f comforters conclusion is

that human beings are no exception and

the human being just like frogs came

from some earlier acted in it and that

everybody else if you came from

something else is going down so

different game the logical suggested

human beings came from faces or human

beings and he has some sort of common

ancestor some I don't know what my

favorite some chicken us handling things

back in Africa some sort of common

ancestor and conclusion to come to the

Magus we are really something other than

a fairly exam and intelligent form of an

animal which is the pneumatic promoted

almost directly from ultimately in

universities and planning in the world

general so this is the part where

historically has major problems with the

Torres would you have solutions not have

to notice confidence absorbing the

service to every 30 nautical but

evolution which was not a random process

that just kind of talisman and that's

the way it is total a chance some sort

of molecules they say say say by random

who knows what they start to be taken

formative years out that was as the

random process it's looked at the

process which is guided by god and this

is God's method of assessment sticking

god panting to the world and meeting it

a lot of certain town and all all the

teachings on the earth are guided

violence aunty hands to the forum at

least when it comes he was being a big

acceptance misconception estate prices

lately prescribed by quite obvious in

tutorial Selma where says that was not

created human being he created them

include unique matter from the creation

of all other creatures he breezed into

Napoli install to he created them in His

image so all of these things to taste

idea of Satan human beings even though

their body the body we have their

striking resemblance to that case and

even though it's part of the same than

the human body is evolved from the

bodies of some little 8y creature that's

was not necessarily any sort of cosmic

equipped with religious but when it

comes to the other facets of human

heating the human family name is the

soul that for Judaism with a station

with sciences if you're going to be

balanced Logan said it we're not only

but a fortunately separate robin you

haven't say that God in some way had

some sort of our extreme or camp in the

greatest human being and that the lack

of a better word that would need to be a

soul that's examples in some way

image of God but everyone is my large we

could fit the holding in there biography

evolution so this design for the earth

it would appear it's been evolved into

that whatever is responsible human being

whether they have alternate no problem

is it or not except for the expiry of

elements of design in order to do that

in their way came from any other animal

the almond toe we were all the elements

of ability to recognize ourselves

awareness god awareness of our own

creation that is not a product of

evolution the matter regarding or

anybody ever documented other people say

that is not a product of evolution that

is a product of the hand of God whenever

there's a question of evolution comes

upon all reminded of a song that I've

heard enough in a movie that was showing

various churches in America and one

search of a of evangelical churches

young group was singing a song and the

song went something like this I'm milk

into the monkey in a moment no chains to

me I certainly get a queen of the truth

and certainly in the long history of

regenerated Darwin's theories there's

been antagonism tortoise and there

moorish ma something similar to a Meyer

is talking about interesting Pope John

Paul and his address to the Pontifical

Academy of Sciences said that evolution

is more than a theory and account and

can account for the physical dimensions

of human life which is pretty much less

cynical and my other saying but cannot

account for if the spiritual aspect of

being human trials doesn't address that

cracker it's not that it doesn't have

the tools talk about who doesn't want to

say is meant to do the Jesuits here we

are to show that in the early part of

this century try to recognize some of

that tension that very problem in your

relationship eccentric please science

particularly evolution and Christianity

actor category and he looked at

evolution and he said what do I see

people in the Big Bang a direction a

trust toward something as something that

that the drop is for days consciousness

he sees that there is a lot of

complexity consciousness at work in the

universe and we as things become more

and more complex that is more and more

individual things working together of a

bit of wine there is inevitably a march

towards very very consciousness until we

are on acting the human conscious

what they are see them is a geosphere

Easter of the Earth's biosphere here

life itself where there is a quantum

jump from the Animus things to survive

yourself and then an enormous jump to

what he calls the novel's here the whole

realm of the human mind their business

and he thistle as a scientist I see this

direction where are we going healthiest

evolution stop and he will say no this

law of complexity consciousnesses put in

English by God and the movement on the

next level of evolution is similar to

all those that would have before it is

now drawing together of all these moms

all these unions there is and souls into

unity into one this is is the vision

into this vision and dream and have

something that we are moving forward in

a tiny tiny bit by our composition I'm

always fascinated by capitulation to to

evolution on the part of religious

practitioners because I think that

probably no other ideas is more in

synthetic ille to the religious

traditions than

the idea of evolution as it's understood

by neo tolerance or da realist I think

that every spiritual tradition Martin

Ling said that every spiritual tradition

teaches the evolution not evolution that

people are actually getting worse not

getting better and this would be the

idea and most traditions of you know

Adam and then the fall of man that the

man has fallen from from come you know

from from paradise from the garden and

then what needs to take place in each

generation is a spiritual a position

which is vertical not horizontal it

isn't move back to God and this is the

challenge of every human generation in

terms of looking at the idea of

evolution I think it's important look at

in historical context I don't feel

qualified I think what we need to have

somebody that really could particul

eight this this talk and it's

unfortunate things been going on for

over a hundred years it really has it's

absurd almost but there are other

religious arguments that went on for

several hundred years before they were

finally kind of ironed out and and

that's why I can wait you know it might

not be in my lifetime but as a human

being I'm willing to wait because i just

given the nature of say Thomas Kuhns

ideas a serious scientific revolution is

that a theory is is populated and then

anomalies arise and those families are

either dealt with by the theory or they

result in attention within the

scientific community that necessitates a

new series to deal with the anomalies

and then anomalies arise again so within

the scientific community I mean you

could see quite clearly that each

generation of scientists believe that

they are at the cutting of truth the

19th century positions that were

leeching people and bleeding the people

to death were actually the men of

science of their age

they believed that this was the most

advanced thing that they could do and

yet a modern position of the looks of

that is is in deep shock at the

stupidity of it well I think probably a

hundred years from now if there are

physicians around they'll be in deep

shock about the stupidity of 20th late

20th century physicians as well so this

is the nature of the scientific

community it's always looking at the

previous generation and amazed at the

things that they've come up with and I

think the Darwinism is another it's

another one of these things that will

fall by the wayside I really do and I

don't think well just to look at it from

a philosophical point of views the

Assumption with Darwinism is at the idea

of continuity the continuity needs to be

explained well this is a Newtonian world

view because Darwin was living in the

world of Newton when you get into

quantum mechanics which is where we are

in the 20th century in fact constitute

continuity is not the assumption it's

discontinuity so you could look at

evolution or you can look at the

beginning of life and human condition

from the perspective of discontinuity as

a source of continuity and then you have

a whole other problem and you can arrive

at a completely different interpretation

of how we how we got to where we are and

where we came from because the quantum

physics allows for spontaneous emergence

and for the Muslims very spontaneous

emergence in creation that they're the

point when God says gunfire could be an

idiot simple as that so we do believe in

spontaneous and immediate generation of

life and we have no problems with that

and Muslims won't and I don't think any

Muslim to understand the photon will

capitulate to that because we believe

that Adam was a prophet and if you if

you think that Adam is some kind of

mythical figure or theoretical mythical

truth that's being presented as many

many Christians believe now from am

looking perspective you are outside of

the tail of Islam so for the most from

the idea that we began as a unicellular

I mean it's just very difficult for the


we don't accept the idea that life

simply began and it's moving and that

there's this thing called nature right

which is the scientists word for God I

mean if you take nature and and put it

into most scientific books a lot of

believers wouldn't really have a problem

with the books the sizes are deeply

embarrassed of the word nature and this

is a word God which is related to the

historical context which darden within

if you look at the dorm with a man

deeply influenced by a philosopher David

Hume and David Hume did not believe that

there should be any religious

explanation for anything in existence

she felt of miracles there's no place

for miracles in science so let's not

explain things through miracles let's

explain things through what we can see

feel and touch and this is part of the

19th century attempt in science is to

explain things by removing God

completely from the picture and then see

what we come up with well if you remove

that from the picture yes you will come

up with theories like evolution but not

me macabre move from the picture you

know it's like the graffiti says you

know neat god is dead quote me chase

than 1,900 djs dead quote dog I mean God

is not some some things that we can just

brush aside for the hoodlum no God is

cruising other guys and you have to

listen to a god says and not this is

what our own egos and what our own those

who want to literally be thrown Johnny

from his majestic place of authority in

the universe and God for us is the

creator the fashion of the Quran says

products and the best and wasaga he is

the creator the originator and the

fashioner the judge fashions creation

and we believe the Prophet Muhammad once

saw a man who was boxing with another

man and he said avoid the faith because

he was created Adam was created on the

same form now this is a clear reputation

in our own tradition that the first man

was created in his own horn qualified

Adam out of quality it's very clear in

the air batang

and we cannot given that our puppet had

said that either the Providence is is as

many people would say he's either a

well-intentioned person who invented

this thing or he's interesting things or

he's a proper from God if he's a proper

from God then we have to accept that

what he's telling us is truth and it's

not metaphorical so we literally believe

that yes God didn't create now if you

want to say well how do you explain lucy

which is a skeleton that was found sixty

percent intact and eight features and

his team as a transitional skeleton

between the eighth period in momentum

well the client says that that God in

fact created ate some men the Quran says

that God said to certain people that

transfer out so greatly cool new kara

denwa kana dv8 and ticks and the

traditional Muslim in terrestrial

transmogrification it's literally took

place and given a lot of these a great

exigent was of the belief that that that

they still continue to procreate in

other words that they're our age that

are actually descendants of human and

not humans that are descendants of age

and this is some citizens reactions

believe it where I'm not ashamed of mine

I don't need to harmonize my believes

with whatever the latest scientific fact

is you know because each generation is

going to come along with the latest

theory and then I have to rework all of

my theology and rework I mean either

it's true or it's not true not all the

interesting some who has entered into

the Islamic state I'm not raising with

them but somebody's coming to say I am

either going to accept the thing and

then restructure my own belief around

the belief of Islam or I am going to

come into the faith with my own

preconceived beliefs and notion

and we can structure my my faith

according to whatever my preconceived

beliefs work so if I'm a scientist and I

can only be a Christian if my

Christianity is in complete harmony with

whatever the latest scientific theories

are things like that is never know I

can't accept that my faith is either

true or it's not true if it is true it

is consistent with the truth now to say

well it can be interpreted in that

pulpit wherever you stop where you stop

once we allow metaphor and allegory to

come in to the Quran very clearly says

some of the verses of this book are

metaphorical and others are clear and as

for the metaphorical ones those who have

deviation their hearts follow them and

as for those who are from do sticky

topics they follow the clear signs so

once you start turning all of your books

and tradition into metaphorical sign

that is the sign of deviation in the

heart that the heart is now interpreting

the book according to one's passions

according to one's own desire so the

Muslim I mean we have to say no we and

we don't end it interesting young up in

Europe Darwinism is literally on its way

out it's very strong in America because

it's become at the ideological level

it's taught as ideology it is thought of

fact it is not a fact it is a theory it

is a theory it is called the theory of

evolution and the theory can sound great

lobsters did that a lot of people don't

believe the poor humoral theory of

medicine anymore but at the time that it

was taught if you were a scientist you

have to believe in it and the great

physician in Europe who actually burns

the book of Hippocrates was considered a

complete heretics at that time his

name's not coming to me is very well

known and he wanted to upend

distribution of the old and say no we

have to go on so Hippocrates was

appearance and some of these theories

are correct and others are wrong but the

one of the sicknesses

of Western civilization was it took

these authorities as absolute truth and

when these authorities were completely

turned upside down it becomes

iconoclastic against all authority and

this is where we're at now I mean we

attacked all authorities but really what

we're tacking most often is the

authority of tradition and what we

celebrate and what we exalt ourselves in

is whatever the dominant thing now we're

in the modern world it's here and now

forget the past and Islam says no we

honor the past we honor the past and

Islam says that the task has great

wisdom to impart to us and what modern

Western tradition Thanos the past is

something let's just discard it let's

get rid of it so I think really it's

very unfortunate that so many imposes

just to make myself perfectly clear here

I don't in any way agrees with what is

known as the fundamentalist Christian

position which is called scientific

creationism I do not believe in that at

all and I think it's actually quite

absurd and I think I would have a very

difficult time in my face if my face

taught me to do so with 6,000 years old

my face was not teaching me that the

Quran said that God created the heavens

and earth in six days and it says 1

minus enamines old and we didn't get

tired in other words God doesn't get

worn out from doing if God is either

all-powerful or he's not I need to get

tired we're in bad shape because maybe

he'll get tired of putting up with all

that the move in the direction of

religious arrogance though let us recall

the very religious people who claims to

be going along the way the religious


and following long long religious

traditions when they sanction slavery

over the century they'd accept all of

our traditions have done that certain

engaged in owning even being and

treating them as something less

consuming this ideas of the dignity of

all human beings took us a while to

demonstrate and so I think our religious

who's also developed are certainly

archaeology results our understanding of

what the text means develops I'm not

sure looking we have complete absolute

control understanding the text from

repeating each other then developed the

Atlantic do not let you not really going

to garden series because of the fact

that God is the creator and garden is

the ugly 14th was the fastener I think

Sebastian's are a fan of your work of

everything what I'm not here about is

two things 1i mentor what is the

conflict regarding the Creator in

fashion and evolution okay ever want

remember two reasons is there anything

specifically in the Quran himself that

precludes the theory of evolution after

that I my point was is that when we say

that we believe in adamant the first

human being and and his companion holla

or ease we believe that they were

created in that form in other words that

they were that God created them in that

form they were created in the form of

man and it is the dignified form it is

not an it is not a form that is is

the denigrate man in fact the Quran says

karramna bani adam' we have honored

Benny Adam and and one of the

interpretations traditional is that

Benny Adam walks upright one of the

interpretations is that Benny Adam was

given an opposable thumb that is

actually a classical interpretation that

the human being can have that God has

given us the ability to use our hands in

ways that animals don't have so we

believe that this form that we are on

use the form of Adam and the prophets

told us that the worst human being was

Adam and Adam had this form he did not

have the form of of an animal he had the

form of a human being which yes there

are aspects that we share with animals

but we are merely an animal we are

called in fact the earth Arabic or the

Muslim theologians called a Cylon not a

speaking animal which which is very

different from rational animal in the

Western sense but a speaking animals

that God has honored us with speech with

the ability to speak and and I think our

difficulty with evolution is that

evolution again at its most fundamental

level is eliminating the Creator and I

think a lot of people missed this point

although there are biologists who are

Christians are biologists who are Jewish

and and might believe that god yes God

is moving in mysterious ways the Pope

just recently announced that natural

selection was one of the ways that God

works in his creation for the

evolutionist who is really really deeply

rooted in evolution this is kind of

absurd because they actually feel that

there is random selection going on in

other words there's trial and error and

this is something really important with

in evolutionary theory you have to

believe in the concept of trial and

error that that God is somehow not

really a he's not a perfect creator you

know messing around he you know in fact

I talked cartoon one of the dinosaurs

and and there was a cloud up there and

the voice coming out of

cloud saying cool and it said God as an

adolescent right and this is the kind of

idea that I think a lot of evolutionists

have that somehow you know we the

appliances as a lot of a lesson of how

to paint blessed is God's the best of

creators the most perfect of groups and

then it says quite clearly in the pond

shut up not in sauna the acting in

Kathleen we have created the human being

in the best catcher now house itself is

the creation we believe that n and it

says in the pond that Adam a dissident

was fashioned by God that God formed

Adam and so this idea that you know

we're moving from a unit failure and

again like Bashar then who i think has

some really dangerous ideas in terms of

classical theology and one of the ideas

is this idea that we're moving towards

perfection is no us fear and and one of

his ideas is that that Christ actually

came at a point where we had reached in

our evolution and his second coming

would be at a point where we are at a

higher stage of evolution which i think

is very very antithetical to a

traditional theological position that

that is that we in fact are moving down

that things are getting worse that

Christ returns when there's a war than

rumors of wars and famines and false

prophets and all the rest that human

beings actually are in a much worse

condition now than they were a thousand

years ago or two thousand from a Muslim

perspect on speaking as a Muslim we

believe that we are getting worse we are

not getting better and evolution is

based on this idea of progress that we

are moving towards a better state note

the the Islamic position very clear we

are moving down and that the end of the

human being is complete degradation but

this is the final space of the last

people on earth and the Prophet Muhammad

said the end of time will not come until

no one is left to say God God and he

said in the end of time will not come

except upon the worst people the worst

human beings and we can see now in in


Erica you know when pornography is is

the number one media in this country

when human beings have reached a level

of human degradation that was beyond the

pale for classical people really i mean

just extraordinary state of affairs all

of the exploitation is going on the

world i would contest that there is more

slavery and bondage now than there ever

has been in the history of human

societies I would contest that the

grossest and greatest abuses of human

beings are taking place in all over the

world you go down to South America you

go to Africa and look and many of these

places are places that the the so-called

religious people of those places

thinking about religious righteousness

our advisors in the government and

things like this so I have know that you

know religious people or

self-righteousness or religious

self-righteousness there is one of the

age-old diseases of the human being you

know waxing self-righteous about his own

religiosity right and certainly a

terrible state to be in so I you know I

think that that is really at the crux of

it is in my tapioca Matthew essentially

intent is that they sir are going to

just keep on getting worse boom we're

heading down and it's going fast and one

of the interesting things right if you

think about it you know it's one of the

modern phenomenon is speak everything's

speeding up we're all experiencing will

speed of the downward motion is not an

outward motion as things move up to

actually slow down right so when human

things are moving up things slow down we

start becoming more tranquil more

content know people are becoming more

anxious they're becoming more wired

right I mean we don't were not content

with 286 we want 386 now we want for it

now we want pentium now we want people

now this computer is to slow you know

this why can't this a fax machine work

faster what's going on I mean this is

and the problem concept and I get it to

a mini chef on speed is from Satan you

know so we would say that the ancients a

very very ancient people Abraham was

deeply deeply spiritually evolved


in a tent according to islamic tradition

and yet we believe that he was probably

one of the most enlightened and

spiritually aware human beings that has

ever existed he was also interesting how

life began according to the plan because

he asked God show me how you bring life

from the dead and God says don't you

believe Abraham and Abraham system in

the pond I believe but in order to give

some stillness to my heart I want to

witness it and God showed him how he

brought something from in a dead

inanimate to life so he was a scientist

from a Muslim perspective Abraham was a

scientist but he was a scientist that

wanted his science to increase his faith

to increase his closeness to God and and

what I see happening in the in the

modern world is the science is

distancing us from God it is a false

prophet and I believe in many ways that

that science now is in fact it is a type

of Antichrist the it is a false god and

people are taking it as a false god and

it promises it promises us salvation and

it will betray us in the end and it

might well be our destruction concerns

that the bowling center I excitement