Islam and Science Interfaith Dialogue

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Event Name: Islam and Science Interfaith Dialogue
Transcription Date:Transcription Modified Date: 5/18/2019
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>to more exact knowledge about the world

were living in the Quran says do not

change the creation of god that's

ability of happiness do not change the

creation of god that is a command for

the Muslims and it is in the the

imperative form in the Arabic language

do not change the creation of God and it

says in the pond that the devil will

encourage human beings to change the

creation of God and the devil says what

I elated I'm not a lot they will change

the creation of a lot they will alter

the creation of God so the Muslim see

this as a gross transgression and

therefore this type of science which has

been separated from the sacred is

unacceptable from a Muslim perspective

the Muslim sees the scientist as a

believer first and foremost and that

when the scientist is divorced from

belief and from the moral and ethical

boundaries of the Islamic traditions

then the Muslim seeds that scientists as

a transgressor and so there is no doubt

that the Muslims would would say that

science that the Quran encourages such

the Quran many many verses in the Quran

tell us not just to reflect on

theological issues reflect on scientific

issues and in answer to is their science

in our text the Quran has many many

verses directly related to science and

more reasonable tires the french

scientist has a very clearly articulated

in several books that the interesting

things and knows about the Quran is

unlikely at the chair rocks and the New

Testament that the Quranic scientific

statements are consistent with with

modern science and modernize I mean by

their what they have shown us to be true

for instance in the pond it says a ton

young go-getter some Elijah Wood are

haven't they looked at the heavens and

the earth and then it says Kenneth

Ruskin of a second album they were bound

together and we

word which you spoke up an album that

means we exploded then put something in

Arabic is the hernia it's an explosion

of breaking out of boundary and then it

has the government and that equalization

height and then from water we created

every living thing now here is a Quranic

verse that is is very consistent with

the modern theory of the beginning of

creation and what's interesting for the

Muslim is is the big bang theory was

forced upon the sign to the community I

mean there's a lot of people that would

like to say it's kind of Christian

sciences of you know know they had a big

problem with it initially because they

did not want to admit the idea that the

universe was not eternal and in fact

Einstein in his initial general theory

of relativity in his initial equation

what what he discovered was that they

actually indicated an unstable universe

in other words mathematically it either

had to be expanding or contracting and

that bothered him so much that he put

correctors equations in there to make it

stable so that he could say that the

universe would eternal and he later

admitted that that was a mistake because

the scientific evidence did indicate

that in fact the universe's is in stable

the unstable edwin hubble discovered

that the universe in fact is expanding

and the and now which the research was

done right down here in stanford with

the backdrop radiation coming into the

earth which were the effects of the

original explosion of the Big Bang so

the floor on very clearly makes that

statement about the universe and in fact

says well Samantha naina have the eighth

and the heavens we have created with

power were in natomas your own and we

are expanding them quite very clearly in

airplane and we are expanding them in

the the fifth century sixth century

commentator on the Quran who even hacia

he was an Angela theme from Spain said

that this must mean somehow that the

universe is growing now this is I'm is

the 6th century a scholar being forced

to look at the

the language and what are the thing and

to take it literally and he had no

evidence for that now it's interesting

that say Thomas Aquinas in the Middle

Ages said that it is only true police

that we believe it is only through faith

that we believe that the universe had a

beginning because it cannot be proven

and this was the position of the

Catholic Church because the agree father

said no it was eternal so here within

the Quran itself no it tells us that the

universe is created and gives us a very

interesting description of how it

actually took place it also talks about

the Big Crunch which is as the Quran

says very clearly that as we as we have

spread out the universe so me will roll

it up and the also the entropic meltdown

of the universe is described very

clearly in the Quran it says that the

earth in the end of time will boil over

so the water will literally boil over

and that there will be a cheap

everywhere and this is what they called

a great keep down of the universe when

the major of entropy of the pieces is

moving out to a constant state and this

is a heat melt down for the universe

this again is in the pot on the Quran

has very clear descriptions of

embryology in fact that the Prophet

Muhammad was once asked what determines

the male of the female and he said there

is a race between the male of water that

this is his language of the seventh

century the male water and the female

walk and the one that gets there first

and he said quite literally yet the saga

men sir we were not as ever did they

will race by the the water of the mail

in the water flume female and the one of

the surfer will determine what it is now

we know the x and the y chromosome now

the x is the female from the bone to why

is the male coma zone and the one that

gets there first will determine whether

the child is a male or a female the

Prophet Muhammad said when he broke his

back he used to break it on date which

is sugar

photos and he said that Mahama was

tended at her with Tabitha raja oh god

my thirst has been quenched and my veins

have been soaked my veins have been

soaked with nutrients with sugar and you

can do as you do a glucose test on

fasting person at the instant that the

sugar gets to the tongue you can do a

six tests and blood sugar goes up

immediately because there was going to

immediate dispersion of glucose within

the body it's almost instantaneous it's

quite extraordinary the Prophet Mohammed

also we learn in school that Thomas

Harvey discovered the circulation of

blood even the thieves who was aids

preceded him by about six hundred years

talked about the circulation of blood

but we also have a tradition from the

Prophet Mohammed in the chiffon i HED

tiffany as in the jetty at them chiffon

Satan flows in the body of Adam through

the flowing pathways of the blood right

and the the the dominant belief was the

blood with stationary it was not moving

in the body and he clearly articulated

the movement and I could go on because

there really are extraordinary

scientific explanations in the Quran of

many many things and inside keith moore

who is a very well-known embryologist

has written the textbook that is used in

several universities in the united

states when he read about the history of

embryology saying that if there was no

history until the microscope was

discovered as somebody actually in

arabia wrote him a letter saying your

flight roams the Quran mentions very

specific details about embryology keith

moore took it quite seriously and looked

into it and found in fact and he

actually has stated in his most recent

edition of his book on embryology which

is used at the UCLA Medical School that

the qur'anic description of the

embryonic creation of the fetal cells

and the movement

complete fetus is consistent with what

we know in modern embryology and it

would have been impossible for a human

being to have that knowledge in the

seventh century by other than some type

of intuition or interpret divine

inspiration and he said and I have no

other explanation for it so I with that

I think I'll just comes earlier when you

said that the triumph that sort of just

read one on relative really has no

business doing though he transgressed

for instance in the case of the cloning

I think would be a good example with

that jr. some awesome items was a

similar conclusion yet well accepted

that scientists viewed as a form of the

truth and there were how to be

compatible with the truth that expressed

in the labyrinth so what what is is can

truth be wrong because the

transgressions in camberley to 10 of

stuff then it on but it's true they did

it they closed the sheep and and they're

probably going to keep on closing more

sheep work or whatever going with what

they're going to people they want people

it hasn't really that I want you guys

out so uh so if it works then I believe

you would agree to this that there's

some elements

truth there there's something real and

true that it's not safe so so how do you

reconcile them assuming that the truth

is fine but the fact that it goes

against what crash would be perceived as

the truth expressed by Islam well I

acted there's some kind of for me I mean

what you're articulating there's there's

some basic flaw here that I thing is

that for instance it is true that a a

gun is fired into the human heart a 38

caliber will definitely kill that person

but but that doesn't mean that you know

to do it is trip or to do it is in fact

you know the idea that the science that

is enabling people to do these things

might certainly be based on demonstrable

proof and demonstrable truths but that

does not mean that that action the

subsequently result from that knowledge

are true or are are worthy of doing you

see what I mean in other words I think

that you know if we can genetically

altered things if we can genetically

clone things that the knowledge that has

enabled us are empowered us to do that

is a type of truth I mean it's either

true or assault if it's true then then

it will be consistent right with with

what we know and what we're able to do

with it but I don't think that that

knowledge itself is a permission to

transgress boundaries in other words I

might know something to be true in

relations just to cause an effect in the

world but it's true that if I punch

somebody that that creates a certain

effect on that person but the action

itself is divorced from the truth of my

knowledge of what what happens when the

action is done so that you know I think

it's very important to separate the idea

of knowledge itself and the knowledge

that we have and what we do with that

College do you see what I mean I think

you think there's an objective truth

they can call sheet at the fact that

well I don't know he is a back to me is

so amended it that an objective truth

but there's a certain sense is a

different type of truth Michael my

father who this is truth or a hora moral

truth that says whatever the gym with

this knowledge when we did a quick

should be using and everything working

for work this is the point and the

Prophet Muhammad says oh god I ask you

for useful knowledge and I think refuge

in you from harmful knowledge because

truth as we know for verbally is a

double-edged sword it can work for us or

it can work against us and it's very

dangerous because when it's in the hands

of people that really have no moral

grounding and many Sciences don't and I

think a scientist that could develop

napalm does not have a moral grounding

and yet we have research scientists in

this country that work in defense that

work on developing more and more

sophisticated weapons to destroy human

being the Prophet Muhammad forbade us to

kill with fire we cannot kill another

human being with fire it is prohibited

in islam and by analogy the muslim

scholars have said that nuclear bombing

is a type of killing people with fire

and that is impermissible now the

Catholic Church interestingly enough in

the Middle Ages one of the post close a

crossbow was an unethical form of

killing another human being in other

words they did have a concept that you

go something could argue all introduced

me to cross ball its shooting it with an


you know you're killing the person well

the idea was but that there's some

nobility when when men go out to fight

there is a nobility in how we fight

there was a general in the Pentagon who

when the Iraqi they found out there were

88,000 by their own admittance there

were a thousand soldiers that were

buried alive with bulldozers this

Pentagon the general says there's no

noble way to kill people right well I

was totally disagree i think the samurai

warrior would certainly disagree because

part of their training was to learn the

art of fighting nobly that there is a

way that human beings act within each

other even when we go to war together

and I know that the that the Christian

tradition certainly has a rules that

relate to in their in their cannon of

rules of war that relate to fighting

noses and I know that also the Jewish

tradition has its laws that relate to

war also so I think you know the point

is yes that we do have knowledge and we

can do extraordinary things with that

knowledge but you know where do we go

visit what permission do we have you

know and and I think probably the most

dangerous inquiry for me about genetic

cloning is this we go back to eugenics

this is Hitler I mean this goes back to

who decides what is the deformity and

what you know who decides how we you

know we clean up the gene pool who

decides what what are inferior genes

that we don't want to have out there and

we've got people saying that the black

people are at the the positively skewed

end rather lately skewed end of the bell

curve that they're inferior people

through intelligence well maybe we don't

want into inferior people around you

know maybe we should look at the genes

that make them in fear and we can

those from the gene pool I mean we do

have knowledge but how are we going to

use this knowledge I can't help myself

but think about the noble warrior I'm

gonna start record damn I can't help but

think are the Klingon warp who

apparently is 57 died nobly and every

day is a good day to die see that that

was better that we not fight and have

not been at each other in the first

place I agree they the the issue of

chroming and what is point toward

exactly that we can have a knowledge we

have a probability in science and

technology to do things but should we

should we use this knowledge

neuroscience what does it lead us toward

what kind of people does it make us into

or how is it common with meeting a child

of God be making uniqueness and likeness

of God so the whole issue is a pony is

really a strong ethical and moral

question what do we become we spent in

excess I think that is

compression easily in whatever negative

unforeseen circumstances of using

technology like that such as doing it so

they're just using the questions I think

built in but perhaps in several it's

acknowledged it is true it's what do we

do it is how do we use it should we even

pursue it that's that's the major

question and I think what we need the

issue here can deploy the goal for

justice team from what perhaps would be

considered the Jewish point of view even

though it's such a new field the Jewish

point of view hasn't really been

formulated something that came out

Saturday last week or something like

that though they had time to sit down

and think about what their position is

going to be honest so I'm kind of

talking something to tempt off the top

of my head responsive questions and by

the top contender chronicles of course

of major ethical problem is there's

another factor that they come to the

place in any ethical for reviewers which

is that whatever laws let's say progress

pounces or somatic Sweeney or the

religious communities try to impose on

scientists in a certain sense are not

going to make a bit of difference

because I if America is a go by these

laws which which i think is going to be

a far pretty unlikely unlikely scenario

because you always have a private lab

and don't happen again sir to the

government they can do it

doing anything other countries out there

that have the knowledge America does not

have monopoly on on biological knowledge

so comes the discovery building in the

government so who live in seconds

dollars per cent Regus holding office if

anybody's guess he probably lived in

America but there you go it's got them

and the nominees comes out there they're

capable of doing the better language in

the original articles of the cloning

thing came in indy nature magazine was

essentially problem almost like a recipe

for how to do it and then anybody out

there you got the right equipment is I

think it's redic ripples will be quite

expensive but if you have right

equipment that you could do it yourself

start calling cheese and then know how

much Japan and who knows what's next I

think we all know what receptors after

chimpanzee so the ethical problems that

anybody might bring up that we should do

this and we should Suzanne in the

servants are irrelevant in the sense

then they're going to do it anymore let

me out there no matter what laws and

come up with what regulations to come up

with would invite you come on somebody

else is going to do it so reminder is

the real issue that the ethical

community is the politically testament

is how harbans want to deal with this

thing in the worst-case scenario because

it's going to happen the eugenics of the

problem of eugenics is going to happen

out there is I don't know one year

whatever it is when you can play the

border what types of child you want for

it and then everybody seems to be

streamlined a lot of certain lines of

festive expertise how this is the world

and just really going going to deal with

them are we going to learn live with it

are we going to go somehow ionizers

where those delivered to get away design

what are whatever give you assistance I

be in I believe the Jewish you on this

would be the kids as from like a reality

it's there in the same sense that the

nuclear power and nuclear bombs are

there and we haven't learned in some

capacity areas and to use them to the

cross manner and that's whatever laws he

plays on them are not going to matter to

the person next door who does mobilize

the laws that I'm like most internet

leaders of an example Judaism's of

tampering with things that we shouldn't

cameras it's the case of work done on TV

bro has colitis which means the mixture

of certain types of peace where you

can't plant a great line so close to a

vegetable or something like that you

can't make certain things that should be

mixed together so its provision of

course where you can't plant a great

line so close to a vegetable or

something like that you can't make

certain things that should be fixed

together so its provision of course we

really should get into we really should

not be cameras in kind of stuff but once

it's out there and one of the rest of

the world is using it we also really

also have to learn to use it in ways

that might be advantageous for them

disregard to the clone how and the

question would come up okay we've done

it this long a person suppose I do

indeed the secret of the question for

the religious community vengeance how do

we treat Clark you can be and then how

do we then exert influence and forth in

the comes in the community about how we

treat that as a as a person and not as

though something for spare parts or have

some somehow less than human so I agree

is that one these things are done in an

emergency situation even though you

didn't you and you would not want to be

involved in the activity what is done

the palace is there you're on a dif

different puzzle and way to make people

and I think that the religious person

always with intention with his culture

with the world the general world around

them that does not share their

resistance and particularly maybe in

science service some to some degree has

been outside religious faith I think you

know with this issue again going back to

the way the Muslims would look at it is

that everything any newly introduced

thing into the cultural news has to be

looked at from the perspective of two

things one is benefit and the others

arms because this the police is that the

Islamic law the sake of all of Islam is

absolutely there for the benefit

human beings it is for no other purpose

and this is by consensus of Muslim

scholars that every law and injunction

that God has given us he has given us

that law for our own benefit and any

prohibition he is prohibited it's

because there's harm in it now for

instance is to give an example warning

in the product clearly says in wine is

benefit for people but enid is harm and

its arm is greater than its benefit so

avoid it very simple clear so we have

sizes now that tell us you know it's

good have a glass of wine every night

you know it actually lower your blood

pressure it'll prevent a cardiac black

and build up and you'll have lower

higher HDL and and and give us all the

scientific explanation well you know

you're also gonna have a lot of people

that have cirrhosis of the liver and are

going to become alcoholics and you're

going to have tens of thousands of

people die on the highways because of

drunk drivers you're going to have lives

that are ruined you're going to have a

child abuse you're going to have

pregnant problems with women now we know

just one little drink can I can possibly

harm the fetus of a child so again the

Quran would say yes that there is

benefit in life but there is great harm

now the cloning of sheep and Scotland

even casual cashmere sweaters might

become very cheap you know n and I

happen to like cashmere sweater but I

can't afford them right so yeah that

that's beneficial I'm not going to the

you know the cashmere it's harmful for

that right there going to be a little

ticked off if they get to me he's got a

shoots up there being cloned right in

fact the Scottish Kashmir Wobs might you

know a chance to stop the process from

the beginning but again what is the harm

of this and part of the harm I mean a

good example good is there as it's very

curious attempts at developing a

oil-eating yer

micro to clean up oil spills this is a

very serious attempt by scientists and

what their I've use that when there's an

oil spill we introduce the bacteria into

the area and boom they'll eat up all the

oil well what do they eat up after they

finished with the oil spill right

another example is the the killer bee a

lot of people don't know that the killer

bees was actually an experiment that

that got out of hand down in South

America where perhaps they don't have as

stringent laboratory conditions that

they do in the Silicon Valley right and

these got out of a cross there was a

scientist literally crossing African

bees with with Brazilian bees and some

of them got away and now we've got a

killer bee problem which is actually

quite serious and a lot of people are

unaware of this another good example is

the the wise grows widespread use of

antibiotics in this country it's just a

phenomenal we're having microbial

changes going on in in the india in the

bacterial world that are phenomenal in

relation to their impact on the human

beings we have harmless now is actuated

it was completely harmless in the 1940s

they are causing most of the Nova camiel

deaths in hospitals like pseudomonas

which is a bacteria that in the nineteen

forty was innocuous was completely

harmless back here but it has mutated

because of widespread use of penicillin

to the point where it's killing

thousands of people every year so again

we have a human being that according to

the Quran one that will teach them in an

end the end of Aviva you have given aids

been given a very small amount of

knowledge and yet we have the human

beings that is the hubris and wonderful

Greek tragedies right it's always hubris

that destroys the human being in Greek

tragedies and this is what human beings

have we have become so arrogant in in

what we're doing in the world that we

think that we can literally do whatever

we want with impunity without any fear

of the repercussions of that and


who in many cases are deeply egotistical

people that are really in search of the

nobel prize of fame and glory and will

follow venues that will take them to so

we don't have the humble pie of

individual who is seeking to understand

the creation of God we have an

individual that literally wants to play

God in his laboratory by creating a new

form of life now the Quran very clearly

says in the Medina says the tournament

do need F believe a lot of the four eva

the nasty method estenio devil an

analogy has been struck for you human

being so listen up it says literally

listen attentively surely though you

call upon beside God they cannot create

a fly even if all of them came together

to do it and if any life was taken from

that fly they could not return that life

to the plot how weak is the speaker and

the salt you see now this very clearly

report on that there is some human

impulse in mankind to walk to the

permission right the Promethean nature

of man I'm going to oppose God I mean

permitted sacrifice his livers being

eaten out and and Zeus strap him to a

rock to suffer for giving knowledge to

mankind any boasting I want mankind to

rebel against the gods and this again is

this satanic little character who comes

in he's the Whisperer and he's the

Whisperer go ahead do it you can do it

you see in the model role people ask why

should we do it because it's doable you

see this as if this is some kind of

ethical justification no we can do it

why find the mountain to prove that we

can do it wycombe the sheet to show that

we can do it or the Quran says that when

the earth brings forth all of its riches

and it becomes ornamented like the sky

has become ornamented and which is

interesting because satellite pictures

now show the earth looks literally like


because of the sky and it says well run

the I hoo-ha unknown club you know Nadia

and the inhabitants of the earth think

that they're all powerful over it they

think they finally conquered nature and

this again is part of this Greek

sickness that used nature as

antagonistic to the human being because

they believed that nature was they were

embodiment of divine energies that were

antagonistic with man the Quranic

worldview is that Sahara diplomatic son

Elijah Wood of God has subjugated for

you everything that's in the heavens in

the earth it is at your disposal the

Quran says that was that he that he has

placed everything in the earth for your

benefit and if for your benefit

including the cove of snakes which can

kill us but it's there because it's

there something there's a wisdom that

there's a fellow as Aristotle would

habits there's there the purpose in that

creation and everything has purpose and

so our goal is to be humble before God

and before God's creation the Quran says

that the service of God are those who

tread lightly on the earth a bad Barack

men are living in turn out of Oklahoma

they tread lightly on the earth what a

beautiful description treading lightly

on your help grossly we're treading on

the earth today literally we're setting

on it with bulldozers and with bombs and

with dynamite we have no reverence for

our own mother the Prophet Mohammed said

be vigilant about this earth because

she's your mother and just as the mother

has life of piety sort of the earth has

right society you know so I just think

that we're really in a dangerous

predicament and I don't fully accept

these ideas are going to do it anyway

and this is for me this is you know we

can say you know that well genocide is

part of the human conditions are always

going to do it

there is no reason why there should be

genocide and when the Islamic law is

being implemented in the world you will

not find any historical records of

Muslims committing genocide against some

other people you will not find it

historically on the wreck i guarantee

you and people will say what about the

church in armenia the church in armenia

were the young turks and they were very

very distant from islamic takers law by

that time the muslims have always and

it's not because we're ontological e

better than people it's not because we

have some special scatters that were

chosen about other people no it's

because we literally have parameters

with which God has commanded us to stay

and a vibrant in and if we abide within

them we are protected when we transgress

them the four answers don't blame

anybody but yourself when when calamity

striking let us not go pink scientists

to directly it so that that religious

person is a patrolman versus be a

scientist or even to be a doctor

certainly as you say science can be is

the hood or pieces and and much of a

testing acting forward and I would not

want I'm not doing that I'm not going

ever again I'm not completely convinced

of that as much I mean this is the

arguments it's time to put forward and

the argument size of support is that

religion is bad for people because it's

left up in a superstitious state and

many scientists are deeply devoted to

the destruction of religion in fact the

man talkin to the various well known

evolutionist just recently he was

awarded the humanist of the Year award

and in his acceptance speech said you

know people create organizations to

destroy the virus aids because it's so

dangerous and he said what we need is an

organization to destroy the virus of

station because this is the most

dangerous thing that is confronting the

human animal

right and I think there are a lot of

scientists the truly believe that the

religion needs to that you know we were

in the magic apparently ball to the

religious stage and now we're on the

rational scientific stage and we need to

just do away with all of this hogwash

really get rid of it it has no relatives

just holding people up and it's

superstition and this is in no way I

mean the scientists are honored in the

Islamic traditions I'm in no way

intimating that Sciences is not

something no the doctors one of our

greatest theologians among chef they

said that really knowledge is reduced to

two things knowledge of God and

knowledge of medicine because one

benefits the soul and the other benefits

the body and man is nothing other than

body and soul it's a beautiful

articulation of that so doctors have

always been honored as scientists that

enhanced human life should be honored

but scientists that degrade human life I

have no place in my heart for respect or

dignity for them

it has been a extremely big topic within

few generations since Darwin came up to

experience specifically the last about

30 years ago here is my five by and

large most Orthodox Jews will take a

position of all hardly rejecting

Darwin's theory of evolution because it

comes into such blatant conflict with

tutorials so the viewpoint that i'm

going to put forth is not necessarily

that of the bulk of the jewish scholars

out there it's my own viewpoint and i

would label it a minority viewpoint

within orthodox judaism dad Darwin came

up with a theory that species involved

they evolved to almost confidence and

certain genetic elements get in there

like that place among humans into the

whole thing and after billions of years

or so as a new species is form so Darwin

I don't recall vision creatures came up

in the periodic system one sort of God

roses or something like that