Islam and Science Interfaith Dialogue

Transcript Details

Event Name: Islam and Science Interfaith Dialogue
Transcription Date:Transcription Modified Date: 5/18/2019
Transcript Version: 1

Transcript Text

throw that all of various topics for our

entire life with

it said Nadia program that I believe

that each speaker should give a five an

intro on their religious background and

designs i'm only looking to include that

within responses first question my own

background i was born in with typical

american jewish family typical in the

sense that it was not all religious and

became religious about each dog ages 20

approximately i myself had driven strong

scientific fashion event in the hard

sciences math and physics to be specific

so when i first got involved in fourth

of X Judaism one of the main points of

contention that has yielded was the

integration of science with traditional

Judaism which at first glance does

indeed have an enormous amount of

Congress it's the first obvious case of

conflict in this situation is that in

the holy book of the Jews which is known

as the Torah or the Bible which is

essentially zbook that the Jewish

people call it with boxes given to the

Jewish people as they were cameras

around Mount Sinai approximately 3,300

years ago the Jewish Jewish inhabitant

was given to the Jewish people by God by

the creator of the universe and then

every where all of you arms and all des

multi-level of meetings that are

contained within there are God's message

to the Jewish people so the problems of

that presents with the message that God

gave through people who win in light of

modern science if there are conflicts

what are you supposed to do about them

so a particularly strong example of what

Michael here's the conflict is in the

opening lines of the Torah is described

how the world people universe was

created in six days and of course on the

seventh day God met and according to

Jewish tradition is the man simply

release the culmination of this event

took place approximately fifty seven

hundred and fifty-four thousand years

ago so this is event an obvious problem

to anybody close the least amount of New

Year in this modern science that in that

look they're saying the world is fifteen

billion years older or whatever the

numbers are means a pendulum fifty blame

something like that so there's an

obvious problem right off the back which

was a properly I was extremely aware on

the other hand some people see this as

an example of compatibility between

science and Judaism in the sense that

the way that many Jews interpret some of

these lines in the Torah is that they're

not meant to be interpreted in their

strict literal sense creditors

interprets as containing some sort of

our lines of what the idea is but then

the deeper message hidden within it and

so this particular case recipe

the six days of creation as it's known

in the Torah framework what I was to do

about that so in general the way people

were depicted some sort of problem

compatibility in science of judges and

what they could say is the world radiant

of either is simply in six states and

he's excited that represented by from

six days of creation the culmination of

these mixed ages was the whole month of

creation maybe the creation of human

beings and the first human being was

created for what the system edition of

having a human soul which city which

that will human being could interact

with God that immense a place 5757 here

today so input in line that regard it's

not all that far off way mark I'm like

looking namely the human beings as as as

the civilized woman to know them to be

took place approximately 6,000 years ago

and the reason the universe took place

in the period of six stages though and

in time series 46 pages are they wasn't

billions of years our businesses

whatever it might have been does anybody

have the Torah vine large is not used as

a cycle it's not going to be a textbook

that will teach a person kind of new

biology or hazard physics or mathematics

or whatever whether or not someone to

leave anything of designers from the

charge of another ball but it's not many

defense and therefore when it comes to

baby questions such as the age of the

universe and having it from about basic

scientific questions the tour is not

going to place where one we looked at it

since determined focused on a completely

different idea focusing on what is the

purpose of our radius was the purpose

are sincere how are you

learn to relate to God how client might

disappear society is also a means of

what God interacted with the earth God

runs in the world through science

through nature and that is another way

that God please do the Torah is

essentially telling them that the waves

God has given them instructions in terms

of our strategies with our fellow human

beings our interactions of the world our

interactions God in some way or another

these interactions also have to comply

with the rules of science and that in

some wherever they don't fit in real

life well then something has to give

something just won't work so as far as

the general question of compatibility

most people do not have probable

compatibility of de toros with science

because the two are looked at it as

almost like two things that are sort of

found each other by and not necessarily

each other head on so so the conflicts

that might appear to be there can always

be sort of worked out as far as science

mentioned in the Torah itself by and

large there is no position to the Torah

other than the description of creation

as derivatives that are described the

only thing that would remotely remember

local temple science is in certain

disease that laser somewhat significant

role in tourism a disease which appears

to example through the visa tony has

leprosy and the only difference is

whether it is a biological release due

to I even know what I'm do some sort of

affection boxes everywhere since loved

easily do too but the disease mentioned

in the Torah which starred questions in

view not as a biological disease


the experience mainly due to experience

defects of character the disease will

affect them physically in general

distance away that Torah Torah Judaism

meets science where science and

describing the physical universe that's

where tourists start describing the

spiritual universe and the jeweler met

complement each other okay but my name

is father Jim Reese I am a Jesuit priest

a professor here at Santa Clara

University i've been here since 1975 and

i teach courses generally around the

area of the christian origin and the

history of christian spirituality um so

I'm a bit different than my colleagues

here today and that I don't have a a

church where I am served as pastor

associate I'm all right I do go out

regularly to churches and a fifth in the

local community particularly the parish

of the Queen of Angels in cupertino and

then also I have the privilege of

presiding at liturgy pier at Santa Clara

University in the mission church but my

primary work is study and teaching

before I begin and address the questions

I'd like to really thank the Muslim

Students Association for organizing

arranging these opportunities for us to

get together I think that it is a

wonderful thing that they do and it

allows us as well to come to a better

understanding of each other and to share

that with all of me tiesto great

gratitude to the Muslim students here at

Santa Clara I would agree with many

things that what I might have said when

I look particularly at the second

question is any science mentioned in

your holy book or tradition well it all

depends with

what we mean by science there was a time

in Christianity of course when we would

say yes there is science fairs champion

in the Roman tradition the Latin

tradition which simply means knowledge

what kind of knowledge is there is there

understanding but that term science has

really come to be understood in a very

particular way today and in the agreeing

with Rabbi Meir in a way that is

understood today there is nothing about

science in survival either in the Hebrew

Scriptures which of course are a part of

our holy book as well as the Christian

scriptures science I think as we see it

is really a defined set of methods and

these methods are either hypothetically

deductive meaning that they attempt to

understand the natural processes of

physical the biological the chemical and

cosmological universe or the science can

also use historical methods and near the

attempt to understand biological

chemical geological and cosmological

history of the earth and ultimately of

the universe so in this sense the Bible

doesn't try to use these kinds of

hypothetical or strictly scientific

historical method the science of the

Bible as our tradition as rabbi said

really tells us about God and God's

relationship to the world and the

universe it answers in a way a much more

important question to us ultimately

about our life who are we how are we

with God who are we with each other in

life of our relationship to God and God

is our Creator God creates the world as


we can then find God in this good world

by paying attention to it taking it

seriously studying it and and by doing

so we will come to understand the

goodness of this world created by God

and that will point us towards goodness

Excel since we've got in the Catholic

tradition of the time apart we speak of

this as the principle of sacrament

allergy that means that everything that

is is in some way a visible sign and

also a bearer of God's presence and

action in the world and so paying

attention to that studying that can

bring us closer to the god with presence

and to the God who is active in a sense

then there's no strictly secular science

science itself can be a means of

understanding who got it and how God

acts with regard to the interpretation

of the scripture it has been you know

Christians have found themselves all

over the place in that throughout the

centuries at time there was a conflict

between science and religion and for

some denominations of Christianity today

there continues to be a sort of conflict

between the two but in the the Catholic

tradition certainly we do not be a

conflict between the two because one

tells us about the much more important

ultimate questions of our relationship

of God and the other helps us understand

the physical universe the cultivation

not on working in the name of God the

merciful the compassionate their

witnesses there's no god but allah and

muhammad sallallahu Senator's office and

I I think it's very tempting being the

3rd after 2 to kind of look at some of

the things that were said before me but

I'm going to attempt to resist that

temptation just part of religion right

resisting temptation i think i would say

initially what otherwise said about the

idea of defining science modern science

as it's being practiced in the west and

really now all over the world I think

it's deep being compatible with the

Islamic teaching and i would say that

because of the results that it produces

in other words from a muslim perspective

there are certain limits and boundaries

which are very clearly defined in the

pond about human behavior and the idea

of transgressing those boundaries is

considered a transgression against God

and against God's order in terms of is

is long and compatible with science if

we define science as truth then

absolutely not it would have to be in

harmony the science because the Muslim

beliefs is that it's almost from the

truth in fact one of the names of God is

on how which means the truth and

therefore what comes from God must be

true and also given that God has made a

rational creatures and creatures that

use the intellect what God has told us

about God and about God's creation must

be understood through the intellect if

the intellect cannot understand it then

this would be unfair on God's part to

give us an intellect and then to give us

things deeply in congruence with the


standing and force us to believe those

things going against what our own

intellect tell us is true now here you

move into another problem which is what

if the intellect is not capable of

discerning the truth because we are

deeply self delusional creatures human

beings can delude themselves to believe

the most incredible thing to give an

example somebody once took a after log

astrological chart of a murder a

murderer in in France and it was saying

what a wonderful person you're

intelligent you're clever you're witty

you're deeply compassionate towards

other human beings and this man had

killed like about 50 people and he sent

it to several different people put an ad

in the newspaper and said free horoscope

sent to this address and he got letters

back telling people that they had to

believe in astronomy astrology before

that but when they got this thing they

said it's so fitted their personality

that that it must be true so the point

being is that we can do it ourselves

into believing many many things so then

what then is the criterion for belief

now from the Muslim perspective I think

we need to divide science into two basic

areas and one would be what would be a

formal system and a formal system of

science deals with proofs and it deals

with axioms and proof so you have an

acronym and then you prove something

based on your AG names like geometry

would be a good example of a formal

system now the nature of formal

scientific systems is they don't deal

with content in other words geometry

will never tell you why something why a

point is that which has no depth or

breasts or why a circle is equidistant

and whatever the scientific definition

that geometry gives us it will not tell

us why so it does not go into what what

would return the structural system which

begins to look at content and to explain

content from a Muslim perspective

Muslims are notorious historically for

accepting formal system geometry

astronomy our panel systems that measure

things many of the Muslims were great

great astronomers and how r is me one of

the greatest mathematicians that ever

lived develop the logarithm which is

actually local rhythm is from his name

at holidays me which in Latin was and

logarithms that's how it was interested

we know almost I am the famous who's

known in the West verse poetry he's not

known in east for his poetry known in

the east for his mathematical

computation he developed a very precise

and exact calendar so the point is is

that within formal systems the Muslims

have never had a problem whether where

they have a problem is when you move

into structural system which is

explaining content and no longer

describing form because science can

either describe something it can prove

something or it can explain something

when it describes something it's simply

descriptive science anatomy physiology

you can just describe the anatomy of a

liver when you move into a system which

then begins to explain the function of a

liberal of the purpose of a liver you

can have a hypotheses and the hypothesis

might be valour it might be invalid

depending on the data that's collected

in all of these things so from the

Muslim perspective when you begin to

explain things in which you have really

no arena or no no really grounding in

that explanation then the Muslims would

say no you have transgressed your

boundaries you are not allowed to

venture into this area and certainly for

instance in the in the modern world

what's happening now with genetic

altering that's going on we've just if

if the report is true and we always have

to wait and see you exactly what's

happened but if the report is true that

in Scotland they have cloned a sheep

well from the Muslim point of view this

is the transgression it's a gross

transgression from the Western

scientific point of view it is not it is


another step in the progress of mankind

that we have moved another step closer

to more exact knowledge about the world

were living in the Quran says do not

change the creation of god that's

ability of happiness do not change the

creation of god that is a command for

the Muslims and it is in the the

imperative form in the Arabic language

do not change the creation of God and it

says in the pond that the devil will

encourage human beings to change the

creation of God and the devil says what

I elated I'm not a lot they will change

the creation of a lot they will alter

the creation of God so the Muslim see

this as a gross transgression and

therefore this type of science which has

been separated from the sacred is

unacceptable from a Muslim perspective

the Muslim sees the scientist as a

believer first and foremost and that

when the scientist is divorced from

belief and from the moral and ethical

boundaries of the Islamic traditions

then the Muslim seeds that scientists as

a transgressor and so there is no doubt

that the Muslims would would say that

science that the Quran encourages such

the Quran many many verses in the Quran

tell us not just to reflect on

theological issues reflect on scientific

issues and in answer to is their science

in our text the Quran has many many

verses directly related to science and

more reasonable tires the french

scientist has a very clearly articulated

in several books that the interesting

things and knows about the Quran is

unlikely at the chair rocks and the New

Testament that the Quranic scientific

statements are consistent with with

modern science and modernize I mean by

their what they have shown us to be true

for instance in the pond it says a ton

young go-getter some Elijah Wood are

haven't they looked at the heavens and

the earth and then it says Kenneth

Ruskin of a second album they were bound

together and we

word which you spoke up an album that

means we exploded then put something in

Arabic is the hernia it's an explosion

of breaking out of boundary and then it

has the government and that equalization

height and then from water we created

every living thing now here is a Quranic

verse that is is very consistent with

the modern theory of the beginning of

creation and what's interesting for the

Muslim is is the big bang theory was

forced upon the sign to the community I

mean there's a lot of people that would

like to say it's kind of Christian

sciences of you know know they had a big

problem with it initially because they

did not want to admit the idea that the

universe was not eternal and in fact

Einstein in his initial general theory

of relativity in his initial equation

what what he discovered was that they

actually indicated an unstable universe

in other words mathematically it either

had to be expanding or contracting and

that bothered him so much that he put

correctors equations in there to make it

stable so that he could say that the

universe would eternal and he later

admitted that that was a mistake because

the scientific evidence did indicate

that in fact the universe's is in stable

the unstable edwin hubble discovered

that the universe in fact is expanding

and the and now which the research was

done right down here in stanford with

the backdrop radiation coming into the

earth which were the effects of the

original explosion of the Big Bang so

the floor on very clearly makes that

statement about the universe and in fact

says well Samantha naina have the eighth

and the heavens we have created with

power were in natomas your own and we

are expanding them quite very clearly in

airplane and we are expanding them in

the the fifth century sixth century

commentator on the Quran who even hacia

he was an Angela theme from Spain said

that this must mean somehow that the

universe is growing now this is I'm is

the 6th century a scholar being forced

to look at the

the language and what are the thing and

to take it literally and he had no

evidence for that now it's interesting

that say Thomas Aquinas in the Middle

Ages said that it is only true police

that we believe it is only through faith

that we believe that the universe had a

beginning because it cannot be proven

and this was the position of the

Catholic Church because the agree father

said no it was eternal so here within

the Quran itself no it tells us that the

universe is created and gives us a very

interesting description of how it

actually took place it also talks about

the Big Crunch which is as the Quran

says very clearly that as we as we have

spread out the universe so me will roll

it up and the also the entropic meltdown

of the universe is described very

clearly in the Quran it says that the

earth in the end of time will boil over

so the water will literally boil over

and that there will be a cheap

everywhere and this is what they called

a great keep down of the universe when

the major of entropy of the pieces is

moving out to a constant state and this

is a heat melt down for the universe

this again is in the pot on the Quran

has very clear descriptions of

embryology in fact that the Prophet

Muhammad was once asked what determines

the male of the female and he said there

is a race between the male of water that

this is his language of the seventh

century the male water and the female

walk and the one that gets there first

and he said quite literally yet the saga

men sir we were not as ever did they

will race by the the water of the mail

in the water flume female and the one of

the surfer will determine what it is now

we know the x and the y chromosome now

the x is the female from the bone to why

is the male coma zone and the one that

gets there first will determine whether

the child is a male or a female the

Prophet Muhammad said when he broke his

back he used to break it on date which

is sugar

photos and he said that Mahama was

tended at her with Tabitha raja oh god

my thirst has been quenched and my veins

have been soaked my veins have been

soaked with nutrients with sugar and you

can do as you do a glucose test on

fasting person at the instant that the

sugar gets to the tongue you can do a

six tests and blood sugar goes up

immediately because there was going to

immediate dispersion of glucose within

the body it's almost instantaneous it's

quite extraordinary the Prophet Mohammed

also we learn in school that Thomas

Harvey discovered the circulation of

blood even the thieves who was aids

preceded him by about six hundred years

talked about the circulation of blood

but we also have a tradition from the

Prophet Mohammed in the chiffon i HED

tiffany as in the jetty at them chiffon

Satan flows in the body of Adam through

the flowing pathways of the blood right

and the the the dominant belief was the

blood with stationary it was not moving

in the body and he clearly articulated

the movement and I could go on because

there really are extraordinary

scientific explanations in the Quran of

many many things and inside keith moore

who is a very well-known embryologist

has written the textbook that is used in

several universities in the united

states when he read about the history of

embryology saying that if there was no

history until the microscope was

discovered as somebody actually in

arabia wrote him a letter saying your

flight roams the Quran mentions very

specific details about embryology keith

moore took it quite seriously and looked

into it and found in fact and he

actually has stated in his most recent

edition of his book on embryology which

is used at the UCLA Medical School that

the qur'anic description of the

embryonic creation of the fetal cells

and the movement

complete fetus is consistent with what

we know in modern embryology and it

would have been impossible for a human

being to have that knowledge in the

seventh century by other than some type

of intuition or interpret divine

inspiration and he said and I have no

other explanation for it so I with that

I think I'll just comes earlier when you

said that the triumph that sort of just

read one on relative really has no

business doing though he transgressed

for instance in the case of the cloning

I think would be a good example with

that jr. some awesome items was a

similar conclusion yet well accepted

that scientists viewed as a form of the

truth and there were how to be

compatible with the truth that expressed

in the labyrinth so what what is is can

truth be wrong because the

transgressions in camberley to 10 of

stuff then it on but it's true they did

it they closed the sheep and and they're

probably going to keep on closing more

sheep work or whatever going with what

they're going to people they want people

it hasn't really that I want you guys

out so uh so if it works then I believe

you would agree to this that there's

some elements

truth there there's something real and

true that it's not safe so so how do you

reconcile them assuming that the truth

is fine but the fact that it goes

against what crash would be perceived as

the truth expressed by Islam well I

acted there's some kind of for me I mean

what you're articulating there's there's

some basic flaw here that I thing is

that for instance it is true that a a

gun is fired into the human heart a 38

caliber will definitely kill that person

but but that doesn't mean that you know

to do it is trip or to do it is in fact

you know the idea that the science that

is enabling people to do these things

might certainly be based on demonstrable

proof and demonstrable truths but that

does not mean that that action the

subsequently result from that knowledge

are true or are are worthy of doing you

see what I mean in other words I think

that you know if we can genetically

altered things if we can genetically

clone things that the knowledge that has

enabled us are empowered us to do that

is a type of truth I mean it's either

true or assault if it's true then then

it will be consistent right with with

what we know and what we're able to do

with it but I don't think that that

knowledge itself is a permission to

transgress boundaries in other words I

might know something to be true in

relations just to cause an effect in the

world but it's true that if I punch

somebody that that creates a certain

effect on that person but the action

itself is divorced from the truth of my

knowledge of what what happens when the

action is done so that you know I think

it's very important to separate the idea

of knowledge itself and the knowledge

that we have and what we do with that

College do you see what I mean I think

you think there's an objective truth

they can call sheet at the fact that

well I don't know he is a back to me is

so amended it that an objective truth

but there's a certain sense is a

different type of truth Michael my

father who this is truth or a hora moral

truth that says whatever the gym with

this knowledge when we did a quick

should be using and everything working

for work this is the point and the

Prophet Muhammad says oh god I ask you

for useful knowledge and I think refuge

in you from harmful knowledge because

truth as we know for verbally is a

double-edged sword it can work for us or

it can work against us and it's very

dangerous because when it's in the hands

of people that really have no moral

grounding and many Sciences don't and I

think a scientist that could develop

napalm does not have a moral grounding

and yet we have research scientists in

this country that work in defense that

work on developing more and more

sophisticated weapons to destroy human

being the Prophet Muhammad forbade us to

kill with fire we cannot kill another

human being with fire it is prohibited

in islam and by analogy the muslim

scholars have said that nuclear bombing

is a type of killing people with fire

and that is impermissible now the

Catholic Church interestingly enough in

the Middle Ages one of the post close a

crossbow was an unethical form of

killing another human being in other

words they did have a concept that you

go something could argue all introduced

me to cross ball its shooting it with an


you know you're killing the person well

the idea was but that there's some

nobility when when men go out to fight

there is a nobility in how we fight

there was a general in the Pentagon who

when the Iraqi they found out there were

88,000 by their own admittance there

were a thousand soldiers that were

buried alive with bulldozers this

Pentagon the general says there's no

noble way to kill people right well I

was totally disagree i think the samurai

warrior would certainly disagree because

part of their training was to learn the

art of fighting nobly that there is a

way that human beings act within each

other even when we go to war together

and I know that the that the Christian

tradition certainly has a rules that

relate to in their in their cannon of

rules of war that relate to fighting

noses and I know that also the Jewish

tradition has its laws that relate to

war also so I think you know the point

is yes that we do have knowledge and we

can do extraordinary things with that

knowledge but you know where do we go

visit what permission do we have you

know and and I think probably the most

dangerous inquiry for me about genetic

cloning is this we go back to eugenics

this is Hitler I mean this goes back to

who decides what is the deformity and

what you know who decides how we you

know we clean up the gene pool who

decides what what are inferior genes

that we don't want to have out there and

we've got people saying that the black

people are at the the positively skewed

end rather lately skewed end of the bell

curve that they're inferior people

through intelligence well maybe we don't

want into inferior people around you

know maybe we should look at the genes

that make them in fear and we can

those from the gene pool I mean we do

have knowledge but how are we going to

use this knowledge I can't help myself

but think about the noble warrior I'm

gonna start record damn I can't help but

think are the Klingon warp who

apparently is 57 died nobly and every

day is a good day to die see that that

was better that we not fight and have

not been at each other in the first

place I agree they the the issue of

chroming and what is point toward

exactly that we can have a knowledge we

have a probability in science and

technology to do things but should we

should we use this knowledge

neuroscience what does it lead us toward

what kind of people does it make us into

or how is it common with meeting a child

of God be making uniqueness and likeness

of God so the whole issue is a pony is

really a strong ethical and moral

question what do we become we spent in

excess I think that is

compression easily in whatever negative

unforeseen circumstances of using

technology like that such as doing it so

they're just using the questions I think

built in but perhaps in several it's

acknowledged it is true it's what do we

do it is how do we use it should we even

pursue it that's that's the major

question and I think what we need the

issue here can deploy the goal for

justice team from what perhaps would be

considered the Jewish point of view even

though it's such a new field the Jewish

point of view hasn't really been

formulated something that came out

Saturday last week or something like

that though they had time to sit down

and think about what their position is

going to be honest so I'm kind of

talking something to tempt off the top

of my head responsive questions and by

the top contender chronicles of course

of major ethical problem is there's

another factor that they come to the

place in any ethical for reviewers which

is that whatever laws let's say progress

pounces or somatic Sweeney or the

religious communities try to impose on

scientists in a certain sense are not

going to make a bit of difference

because I if America is a go by these

laws which which i think is going to be

a far pretty unlikely unlikely scenario

because you always have a private lab

and don't happen again sir to the

government they can do it

doing anything other countries out there

that have the knowledge America does not

have monopoly on on biological knowledge

so comes the discovery building in the

government so who live in seconds

dollars per cent Regus holding office if

anybody's guess he probably lived in

America but there you go it's got them

and the nominees comes out there they're

capable of doing the better language in

the original articles of the cloning

thing came in indy nature magazine was

essentially problem almost like a recipe

for how to do it and then anybody out

there you got the right equipment is I

think it's redic ripples will be quite

expensive but if you have right

equipment that you could do it yourself

start calling cheese and then know how

much Japan and who knows what's next I

think we all know what receptors after

chimpanzee so the ethical problems that

anybody might bring up that we should do

this and we should Suzanne in the

servants are irrelevant in the sense

then they're going to do it anymore let

me out there no matter what laws and

come up with what regulations to come up

with would invite you come on somebody

else is going to do it so reminder is

the real issue that the ethical

community is the politically testament

is how harbans want to deal with this

thing in the worst-case scenario because

it's going to happen the eugenics of the

problem of eugenics is going to happen

out there is I don't know one year

whatever it is when you can play the

border what types of child you want for

it and then everybody seems to be

streamlined a lot of certain lines of

festive expertise how this is the world

and just really going going to deal with

them are we going to learn live with it

are we going to go somehow ionizers

where those delivered to get away design

what are whatever give you assistance I

be in I believe the Jewish you on this

would be the kids as from like a reality

it's there in the same sense that the

nuclear power and nuclear bombs are

there and we haven't learned in some

capacity areas and to use them to the

cross manner and that's whatever laws he

plays on them are not going to matter to

the person next door who does mobilize

the laws that I'm like most internet

leaders of an example Judaism's of

tampering with things that we shouldn't

cameras it's the case of work done on TV

bro has colitis which means the mixture

of certain types of peace where you

can't plant a great line so close to a

vegetable or something like that you

can't make certain things that should be

mixed together so its provision of

course where you can't plant a great

line so close to a vegetable or

something like that you can't make

certain things that should be fixed

together so its provision of course we

really should get into we really should

not be cameras in kind of stuff but once

it's out there and one of the rest of

the world is using it we also really

also have to learn to use it in ways

that might be advantageous for them

disregard to the clone how and the

question would come up okay we've done

it this long a person suppose I do

indeed the secret of the question for

the religious community vengeance how do

we treat Clark you can be and then how

do we then exert influence and forth in

the comes in the community about how we

treat that as a as a person and not as

though something for spare parts or have

some somehow less than human so I agree

is that one these things are done in an

emergency situation even though you

didn't you and you would not want to be

involved in the activity what is done

the palace is there you're on a dif

different puzzle and way to make people

and I think that the religious person

always with intention with his culture

with the world the general world around

them that does not share their

resistance and particularly maybe in

science service some to some degree has

been outside religious faith I think you

know with this issue again going back to

the way the Muslims would look at it is

that everything any newly introduced

thing into the cultural news has to be

looked at from the perspective of two

things one is benefit and the others

arms because this the police is that the

Islamic law the sake of all of Islam is

absolutely there for the benefit

human beings it is for no other purpose

and this is by consensus of Muslim

scholars that every law and injunction

that God has given us he has given us

that law for our own benefit and any

prohibition he is prohibited it's

because there's harm in it now for

instance is to give an example warning

in the product clearly says in wine is

benefit for people but enid is harm and

its arm is greater than its benefit so

avoid it very simple clear so we have

sizes now that tell us you know it's

good have a glass of wine every night

you know it actually lower your blood

pressure it'll prevent a cardiac black

and build up and you'll have lower

higher HDL and and and give us all the

scientific explanation well you know

you're also gonna have a lot of people

that have cirrhosis of the liver and are

going to become alcoholics and you're

going to have tens of thousands of

people die on the highways because of

drunk drivers you're going to have lives

that are ruined you're going to have a

child abuse you're going to have

pregnant problems with women now we know

just one little drink can I can possibly

harm the fetus of a child so again the

Quran would say yes that there is

benefit in life but there is great harm

now the cloning of sheep and Scotland

even casual cashmere sweaters might

become very cheap you know n and I

happen to like cashmere sweater but I

can't afford them right so yeah that

that's beneficial I'm not going to the

you know the cashmere it's harmful for

that right there going to be a little

ticked off if they get to me he's got a

shoots up there being cloned right in

fact the Scottish Kashmir Wobs might you

know a chance to stop the process from

the beginning but again what is the harm

of this and part of the harm I mean a

good example good is there as it's very

curious attempts at developing a

oil-eating yer

micro to clean up oil spills this is a

very serious attempt by scientists and

what their I've use that when there's an

oil spill we introduce the bacteria into

the area and boom they'll eat up all the

oil well what do they eat up after they

finished with the oil spill right

another example is the the killer bee a

lot of people don't know that the killer

bees was actually an experiment that

that got out of hand down in South

America where perhaps they don't have as

stringent laboratory conditions that

they do in the Silicon Valley right and

these got out of a cross there was a

scientist literally crossing African

bees with with Brazilian bees and some

of them got away and now we've got a

killer bee problem which is actually

quite serious and a lot of people are

unaware of this another good example is

the the wise grows widespread use of

antibiotics in this country it's just a

phenomenal we're having microbial

changes going on in in the india in the

bacterial world that are phenomenal in

relation to their impact on the human

beings we have harmless now is actuated

it was completely harmless in the 1940s

they are causing most of the Nova camiel

deaths in hospitals like pseudomonas

which is a bacteria that in the nineteen

forty was innocuous was completely

harmless back here but it has mutated

because of widespread use of penicillin

to the point where it's killing

thousands of people every year so again

we have a human being that according to

the Quran one that will teach them in an

end the end of Aviva you have given aids

been given a very small amount of

knowledge and yet we have the human

beings that is the hubris and wonderful

Greek tragedies right it's always hubris

that destroys the human being in Greek

tragedies and this is what human beings

have we have become so arrogant in in

what we're doing in the world that we

think that we can literally do whatever

we want with impunity without any fear

of the repercussions of that and


who in many cases are deeply egotistical

people that are really in search of the

nobel prize of fame and glory and will

follow venues that will take them to so

we don't have the humble pie of

individual who is seeking to understand

the creation of God we have an

individual that literally wants to play

God in his laboratory by creating a new

form of life now the Quran very clearly

says in the Medina says the tournament

do need F believe a lot of the four eva

the nasty method estenio devil an

analogy has been struck for you human

being so listen up it says literally

listen attentively surely though you

call upon beside God they cannot create

a fly even if all of them came together

to do it and if any life was taken from

that fly they could not return that life

to the plot how weak is the speaker and

the salt you see now this very clearly

report on that there is some human

impulse in mankind to walk to the

permission right the Promethean nature

of man I'm going to oppose God I mean

permitted sacrifice his livers being

eaten out and and Zeus strap him to a

rock to suffer for giving knowledge to

mankind any boasting I want mankind to

rebel against the gods and this again is

this satanic little character who comes

in he's the Whisperer and he's the

Whisperer go ahead do it you can do it

you see in the model role people ask why

should we do it because it's doable you

see this as if this is some kind of

ethical justification no we can do it

why find the mountain to prove that we

can do it wycombe the sheet to show that

we can do it or the Quran says that when

the earth brings forth all of its riches

and it becomes ornamented like the sky

has become ornamented and which is

interesting because satellite pictures

now show the earth looks literally like


because of the sky and it says well run

the I hoo-ha unknown club you know Nadia

and the inhabitants of the earth think

that they're all powerful over it they

think they finally conquered nature and

this again is part of this Greek

sickness that used nature as

antagonistic to the human being because

they believed that nature was they were

embodiment of divine energies that were

antagonistic with man the Quranic

worldview is that Sahara diplomatic son

Elijah Wood of God has subjugated for

you everything that's in the heavens in

the earth it is at your disposal the

Quran says that was that he that he has

placed everything in the earth for your

benefit and if for your benefit

including the cove of snakes which can

kill us but it's there because it's

there something there's a wisdom that

there's a fellow as Aristotle would

habits there's there the purpose in that

creation and everything has purpose and

so our goal is to be humble before God

and before God's creation the Quran says

that the service of God are those who

tread lightly on the earth a bad Barack

men are living in turn out of Oklahoma

they tread lightly on the earth what a

beautiful description treading lightly

on your help grossly we're treading on

the earth today literally we're setting

on it with bulldozers and with bombs and

with dynamite we have no reverence for

our own mother the Prophet Mohammed said

be vigilant about this earth because

she's your mother and just as the mother

has life of piety sort of the earth has

right society you know so I just think

that we're really in a dangerous

predicament and I don't fully accept

these ideas are going to do it anyway

and this is for me this is you know we

can say you know that well genocide is

part of the human conditions are always

going to do it

there is no reason why there should be

genocide and when the Islamic law is

being implemented in the world you will

not find any historical records of

Muslims committing genocide against some

other people you will not find it

historically on the wreck i guarantee

you and people will say what about the

church in armenia the church in armenia

were the young turks and they were very

very distant from islamic takers law by

that time the muslims have always and

it's not because we're ontological e

better than people it's not because we

have some special scatters that were

chosen about other people no it's

because we literally have parameters

with which God has commanded us to stay

and a vibrant in and if we abide within

them we are protected when we transgress

them the four answers don't blame

anybody but yourself when when calamity

striking let us not go pink scientists

to directly it so that that religious

person is a patrolman versus be a

scientist or even to be a doctor

certainly as you say science can be is

the hood or pieces and and much of a

testing acting forward and I would not

want I'm not doing that I'm not going

ever again I'm not completely convinced

of that as much I mean this is the

arguments it's time to put forward and

the argument size of support is that

religion is bad for people because it's

left up in a superstitious state and

many scientists are deeply devoted to

the destruction of religion in fact the

man talkin to the various well known

evolutionist just recently he was

awarded the humanist of the Year award

and in his acceptance speech said you

know people create organizations to

destroy the virus aids because it's so

dangerous and he said what we need is an

organization to destroy the virus of

station because this is the most

dangerous thing that is confronting the

human animal

right and I think there are a lot of

scientists the truly believe that the

religion needs to that you know we were

in the magic apparently ball to the

religious stage and now we're on the

rational scientific stage and we need to

just do away with all of this hogwash

really get rid of it it has no relatives

just holding people up and it's

superstition and this is in no way I

mean the scientists are honored in the

Islamic traditions I'm in no way

intimating that Sciences is not

something no the doctors one of our

greatest theologians among chef they

said that really knowledge is reduced to

two things knowledge of God and

knowledge of medicine because one

benefits the soul and the other benefits

the body and man is nothing other than

body and soul it's a beautiful

articulation of that so doctors have

always been honored as scientists that

enhanced human life should be honored

but scientists that degrade human life I

have no place in my heart for respect or

dignity for them

it has been a extremely big topic within

few generations since Darwin came up to

experience specifically the last about

30 years ago here is my five by and

large most Orthodox Jews will take a

position of all hardly rejecting

Darwin's theory of evolution because it

comes into such blatant conflict with

tutorials so the viewpoint that i'm

going to put forth is not necessarily

that of the bulk of the jewish scholars

out there it's my own viewpoint and i

would label it a minority viewpoint

within orthodox judaism dad Darwin came

up with a theory that species involved

they evolved to almost confidence and

certain genetic elements get in there

like that place among humans into the

whole thing and after billions of years

or so as a new species is form so Darwin

I don't recall vision creatures came up

in the periodic system one sort of God

roses or something like that and did not

stop to the garden and he's expanding

series to include human beings the

Jewish you are on the juices I believe

concerted garden would be to follow that

everything Darwin says as far as natural

selection and over the Torah would have

no problem every single thing the

darkest day with one comes to Torah

concision purpose that there is some

sort of

everyone out here the universe world

creation is all games for a specific

goal and evolution is in a certain sense

is the natural corner of being led along

that path the problem top level when you

throw human being into the equation and

the conclusion the logical conclusion

the dark occasions which I believe most

scientists who come to st. Lucia most

biologists 13f comforters conclusion is

that human beings are no exception and

the human being just like frogs came

from some earlier acted in it and that

everybody else if you came from

something else is going down so

different game the logical suggested

human beings came from faces or human

beings and he has some sort of common

ancestor some I don't know what my

favorite some chicken us handling things

back in Africa some sort of common

ancestor and conclusion to come to the

Magus we are really something other than

a fairly exam and intelligent form of an

animal which is the pneumatic promoted

almost directly from ultimately in

universities and planning in the world

general so this is the part where

historically has major problems with the

Torres would you have solutions not have

to notice confidence absorbing the

service to every 30 nautical but

evolution which was not a random process

that just kind of talisman and that's

the way it is total a chance some sort

of molecules they say say say by random

who knows what they start to be taken

formative years out that was as the

random process it's looked at the

process which is guided by god and this

is God's method of assessment sticking

god panting to the world and meeting it

a lot of certain town and all all the

teachings on the earth are guided

violence aunty hands to the forum at

least when it comes he was being a big

acceptance misconception estate prices

lately prescribed by quite obvious in

tutorial Selma where says that was not

created human being he created them

include unique matter from the creation

of all other creatures he breezed into

Napoli install to he created them in His

image so all of these things to taste

idea of Satan human beings even though

their body the body we have their

striking resemblance to that case and

even though it's part of the same than

the human body is evolved from the

bodies of some little 8y creature that's

was not necessarily any sort of cosmic

equipped with religious but when it

comes to the other facets of human

heating the human family name is the

soul that for Judaism with a station

with sciences if you're going to be

balanced Logan said it we're not only

but a fortunately separate robin you

haven't say that God in some way had

some sort of our extreme or camp in the

greatest human being and that the lack

of a better word that would need to be a

soul that's examples in some way

image of God but everyone is my large we

could fit the holding in there biography

evolution so this design for the earth

it would appear it's been evolved into

that whatever is responsible human being

whether they have alternate no problem

is it or not except for the expiry of

elements of design in order to do that

in their way came from any other animal

the almond toe we were all the elements

of ability to recognize ourselves

awareness god awareness of our own

creation that is not a product of

evolution the matter regarding or

anybody ever documented other people say

that is not a product of evolution that

is a product of the hand of God whenever

there's a question of evolution comes

upon all reminded of a song that I've

heard enough in a movie that was showing

various churches in America and one

search of a of evangelical churches

young group was singing a song and the

song went something like this I'm milk

into the monkey in a moment no chains to

me I certainly get a queen of the truth

and certainly in the long history of

regenerated Darwin's theories there's

been antagonism tortoise and there

moorish ma something similar to a Meyer

is talking about interesting Pope John

Paul and his address to the Pontifical

Academy of Sciences said that evolution

is more than a theory and account and

can account for the physical dimensions

of human life which is pretty much less

cynical and my other saying but cannot

account for if the spiritual aspect of

being human trials doesn't address that

cracker it's not that it doesn't have

the tools talk about who doesn't want to

say is meant to do the Jesuits here we

are to show that in the early part of

this century try to recognize some of

that tension that very problem in your

relationship eccentric please science

particularly evolution and Christianity

actor category and he looked at

evolution and he said what do I see

people in the Big Bang a direction a

trust toward something as something that

that the drop is for days consciousness

he sees that there is a lot of

complexity consciousness at work in the

universe and we as things become more

and more complex that is more and more

individual things working together of a

bit of wine there is inevitably a march

towards very very consciousness until we

are on acting the human conscious

what they are see them is a geosphere

Easter of the Earth's biosphere here

life itself where there is a quantum

jump from the Animus things to survive

yourself and then an enormous jump to

what he calls the novel's here the whole

realm of the human mind their business

and he thistle as a scientist I see this

direction where are we going healthiest

evolution stop and he will say no this

law of complexity consciousnesses put in

English by God and the movement on the

next level of evolution is similar to

all those that would have before it is

now drawing together of all these moms

all these unions there is and souls into

unity into one this is is the vision

into this vision and dream and have

something that we are moving forward in

a tiny tiny bit by our composition I'm

always fascinated by capitulation to to

evolution on the part of religious

practitioners because I think that

probably no other ideas is more in

synthetic ille to the religious

traditions than

the idea of evolution as it's understood

by neo tolerance or da realist I think

that every spiritual tradition Martin

Ling said that every spiritual tradition

teaches the evolution not evolution that

people are actually getting worse not

getting better and this would be the

idea and most traditions of you know

Adam and then the fall of man that the

man has fallen from from come you know

from from paradise from the garden and

then what needs to take place in each

generation is a spiritual a position

which is vertical not horizontal it

isn't move back to God and this is the

challenge of every human generation in

terms of looking at the idea of

evolution I think it's important look at

in historical context I don't feel

qualified I think what we need to have

somebody that really could particul

eight this this talk and it's

unfortunate things been going on for

over a hundred years it really has it's

absurd almost but there are other

religious arguments that went on for

several hundred years before they were

finally kind of ironed out and and

that's why I can wait you know it might

not be in my lifetime but as a human

being I'm willing to wait because i just

given the nature of say Thomas Kuhns

ideas a serious scientific revolution is

that a theory is is populated and then

anomalies arise and those families are

either dealt with by the theory or they

result in attention within the

scientific community that necessitates a

new series to deal with the anomalies

and then anomalies arise again so within

the scientific community I mean you

could see quite clearly that each

generation of scientists believe that

they are at the cutting of truth the

19th century positions that were

leeching people and bleeding the people

to death were actually the men of

science of their age

they believed that this was the most

advanced thing that they could do and

yet a modern position of the looks of

that is is in deep shock at the

stupidity of it well I think probably a

hundred years from now if there are

physicians around they'll be in deep

shock about the stupidity of 20th late

20th century physicians as well so this

is the nature of the scientific

community it's always looking at the

previous generation and amazed at the

things that they've come up with and I

think the Darwinism is another it's

another one of these things that will

fall by the wayside I really do and I

don't think well just to look at it from

a philosophical point of views the

Assumption with Darwinism is at the idea

of continuity the continuity needs to be

explained well this is a Newtonian world

view because Darwin was living in the

world of Newton when you get into

quantum mechanics which is where we are

in the 20th century in fact constitute

continuity is not the assumption it's

discontinuity so you could look at

evolution or you can look at the

beginning of life and human condition

from the perspective of discontinuity as

a source of continuity and then you have

a whole other problem and you can arrive

at a completely different interpretation

of how we how we got to where we are and

where we came from because the quantum

physics allows for spontaneous emergence

and for the Muslims very spontaneous

emergence in creation that they're the

point when God says gunfire could be an

idiot simple as that so we do believe in

spontaneous and immediate generation of

life and we have no problems with that

and Muslims won't and I don't think any

Muslim to understand the photon will

capitulate to that because we believe

that Adam was a prophet and if you if

you think that Adam is some kind of

mythical figure or theoretical mythical

truth that's being presented as many

many Christians believe now from am

looking perspective you are outside of

the tail of Islam so for the most from

the idea that we began as a unicellular

I mean it's just very difficult for the


we don't accept the idea that life

simply began and it's moving and that

there's this thing called nature right

which is the scientists word for God I

mean if you take nature and and put it

into most scientific books a lot of

believers wouldn't really have a problem

with the books the sizes are deeply

embarrassed of the word nature and this

is a word God which is related to the

historical context which darden within

if you look at the dorm with a man

deeply influenced by a philosopher David

Hume and David Hume did not believe that

there should be any religious

explanation for anything in existence

she felt of miracles there's no place

for miracles in science so let's not

explain things through miracles let's

explain things through what we can see

feel and touch and this is part of the

19th century attempt in science is to

explain things by removing God

completely from the picture and then see

what we come up with well if you remove

that from the picture yes you will come

up with theories like evolution but not

me macabre move from the picture you

know it's like the graffiti says you

know neat god is dead quote me chase

than 1,900 djs dead quote dog I mean God

is not some some things that we can just

brush aside for the hoodlum no God is

cruising other guys and you have to

listen to a god says and not this is

what our own egos and what our own those

who want to literally be thrown Johnny

from his majestic place of authority in

the universe and God for us is the

creator the fashion of the Quran says

products and the best and wasaga he is

the creator the originator and the

fashioner the judge fashions creation

and we believe the Prophet Muhammad once

saw a man who was boxing with another

man and he said avoid the faith because

he was created Adam was created on the

same form now this is a clear reputation

in our own tradition that the first man

was created in his own horn qualified

Adam out of quality it's very clear in

the air batang

and we cannot given that our puppet had

said that either the Providence is is as

many people would say he's either a

well-intentioned person who invented

this thing or he's interesting things or

he's a proper from God if he's a proper

from God then we have to accept that

what he's telling us is truth and it's

not metaphorical so we literally believe

that yes God didn't create now if you

want to say well how do you explain lucy

which is a skeleton that was found sixty

percent intact and eight features and

his team as a transitional skeleton

between the eighth period in momentum

well the client says that that God in

fact created ate some men the Quran says

that God said to certain people that

transfer out so greatly cool new kara

denwa kana dv8 and ticks and the

traditional Muslim in terrestrial

transmogrification it's literally took

place and given a lot of these a great

exigent was of the belief that that that

they still continue to procreate in

other words that they're our age that

are actually descendants of human and

not humans that are descendants of age

and this is some citizens reactions

believe it where I'm not ashamed of mine

I don't need to harmonize my believes

with whatever the latest scientific fact

is you know because each generation is

going to come along with the latest

theory and then I have to rework all of

my theology and rework I mean either

it's true or it's not true not all the

interesting some who has entered into

the Islamic state I'm not raising with

them but somebody's coming to say I am

either going to accept the thing and

then restructure my own belief around

the belief of Islam or I am going to

come into the faith with my own

preconceived beliefs and notion

and we can structure my my faith

according to whatever my preconceived

beliefs work so if I'm a scientist and I

can only be a Christian if my

Christianity is in complete harmony with

whatever the latest scientific theories

are things like that is never know I

can't accept that my faith is either

true or it's not true if it is true it

is consistent with the truth now to say

well it can be interpreted in that

pulpit wherever you stop where you stop

once we allow metaphor and allegory to

come in to the Quran very clearly says

some of the verses of this book are

metaphorical and others are clear and as

for the metaphorical ones those who have

deviation their hearts follow them and

as for those who are from do sticky

topics they follow the clear signs so

once you start turning all of your books

and tradition into metaphorical sign

that is the sign of deviation in the

heart that the heart is now interpreting

the book according to one's passions

according to one's own desire so the

Muslim I mean we have to say no we and

we don't end it interesting young up in

Europe Darwinism is literally on its way

out it's very strong in America because

it's become at the ideological level

it's taught as ideology it is thought of

fact it is not a fact it is a theory it

is a theory it is called the theory of

evolution and the theory can sound great

lobsters did that a lot of people don't

believe the poor humoral theory of

medicine anymore but at the time that it

was taught if you were a scientist you

have to believe in it and the great

physician in Europe who actually burns

the book of Hippocrates was considered a

complete heretics at that time his

name's not coming to me is very well

known and he wanted to upend

distribution of the old and say no we

have to go on so Hippocrates was

appearance and some of these theories

are correct and others are wrong but the

one of the sicknesses

of Western civilization was it took

these authorities as absolute truth and

when these authorities were completely

turned upside down it becomes

iconoclastic against all authority and

this is where we're at now I mean we

attacked all authorities but really what

we're tacking most often is the

authority of tradition and what we

celebrate and what we exalt ourselves in

is whatever the dominant thing now we're

in the modern world it's here and now

forget the past and Islam says no we

honor the past we honor the past and

Islam says that the task has great

wisdom to impart to us and what modern

Western tradition Thanos the past is

something let's just discard it let's

get rid of it so I think really it's

very unfortunate that so many imposes

just to make myself perfectly clear here

I don't in any way agrees with what is

known as the fundamentalist Christian

position which is called scientific

creationism I do not believe in that at

all and I think it's actually quite

absurd and I think I would have a very

difficult time in my face if my face

taught me to do so with 6,000 years old

my face was not teaching me that the

Quran said that God created the heavens

and earth in six days and it says 1

minus enamines old and we didn't get

tired in other words God doesn't get

worn out from doing if God is either

all-powerful or he's not I need to get

tired we're in bad shape because maybe

he'll get tired of putting up with all

that the move in the direction of

religious arrogance though let us recall

the very religious people who claims to

be going along the way the religious


and following long long religious

traditions when they sanction slavery

over the century they'd accept all of

our traditions have done that certain

engaged in owning even being and

treating them as something less

consuming this ideas of the dignity of

all human beings took us a while to

demonstrate and so I think our religious

who's also developed are certainly

archaeology results our understanding of

what the text means develops I'm not

sure looking we have complete absolute

control understanding the text from

repeating each other then developed the

Atlantic do not let you not really going

to garden series because of the fact

that God is the creator and garden is

the ugly 14th was the fastener I think

Sebastian's are a fan of your work of

everything what I'm not here about is

two things 1i mentor what is the

conflict regarding the Creator in

fashion and evolution okay ever want

remember two reasons is there anything

specifically in the Quran himself that

precludes the theory of evolution after

that I my point was is that when we say

that we believe in adamant the first

human being and and his companion holla

or ease we believe that they were

created in that form in other words that

they were that God created them in that

form they were created in the form of

man and it is the dignified form it is

not an it is not a form that is is

the denigrate man in fact the Quran says

karramna bani adam' we have honored

Benny Adam and and one of the

interpretations traditional is that

Benny Adam walks upright one of the

interpretations is that Benny Adam was

given an opposable thumb that is

actually a classical interpretation that

the human being can have that God has

given us the ability to use our hands in

ways that animals don't have so we

believe that this form that we are on

use the form of Adam and the prophets

told us that the worst human being was

Adam and Adam had this form he did not

have the form of of an animal he had the

form of a human being which yes there

are aspects that we share with animals

but we are merely an animal we are

called in fact the earth Arabic or the

Muslim theologians called a Cylon not a

speaking animal which which is very

different from rational animal in the

Western sense but a speaking animals

that God has honored us with speech with

the ability to speak and and I think our

difficulty with evolution is that

evolution again at its most fundamental

level is eliminating the Creator and I

think a lot of people missed this point

although there are biologists who are

Christians are biologists who are Jewish

and and might believe that god yes God

is moving in mysterious ways the Pope

just recently announced that natural

selection was one of the ways that God

works in his creation for the

evolutionist who is really really deeply

rooted in evolution this is kind of

absurd because they actually feel that

there is random selection going on in

other words there's trial and error and

this is something really important with

in evolutionary theory you have to

believe in the concept of trial and

error that that God is somehow not

really a he's not a perfect creator you

know messing around he you know in fact

I talked cartoon one of the dinosaurs

and and there was a cloud up there and

the voice coming out of

cloud saying cool and it said God as an

adolescent right and this is the kind of

idea that I think a lot of evolutionists

have that somehow you know we the

appliances as a lot of a lesson of how

to paint blessed is God's the best of

creators the most perfect of groups and

then it says quite clearly in the pond

shut up not in sauna the acting in

Kathleen we have created the human being

in the best catcher now house itself is

the creation we believe that n and it

says in the pond that Adam a dissident

was fashioned by God that God formed

Adam and so this idea that you know

we're moving from a unit failure and

again like Bashar then who i think has

some really dangerous ideas in terms of

classical theology and one of the ideas

is this idea that we're moving towards

perfection is no us fear and and one of

his ideas is that that Christ actually

came at a point where we had reached in

our evolution and his second coming

would be at a point where we are at a

higher stage of evolution which i think

is very very antithetical to a

traditional theological position that

that is that we in fact are moving down

that things are getting worse that

Christ returns when there's a war than

rumors of wars and famines and false

prophets and all the rest that human

beings actually are in a much worse

condition now than they were a thousand

years ago or two thousand from a Muslim

perspect on speaking as a Muslim we

believe that we are getting worse we are

not getting better and evolution is

based on this idea of progress that we

are moving towards a better state note

the the Islamic position very clear we

are moving down and that the end of the

human being is complete degradation but

this is the final space of the last

people on earth and the Prophet Muhammad

said the end of time will not come until

no one is left to say God God and he

said in the end of time will not come

except upon the worst people the worst

human beings and we can see now in in


Erica you know when pornography is is

the number one media in this country

when human beings have reached a level

of human degradation that was beyond the

pale for classical people really i mean

just extraordinary state of affairs all

of the exploitation is going on the

world i would contest that there is more

slavery and bondage now than there ever

has been in the history of human

societies I would contest that the

grossest and greatest abuses of human

beings are taking place in all over the

world you go down to South America you

go to Africa and look and many of these

places are places that the the so-called

religious people of those places

thinking about religious righteousness

our advisors in the government and

things like this so I have know that you

know religious people or

self-righteousness or religious

self-righteousness there is one of the

age-old diseases of the human being you

know waxing self-righteous about his own

religiosity right and certainly a

terrible state to be in so I you know I

think that that is really at the crux of

it is in my tapioca Matthew essentially

intent is that they sir are going to

just keep on getting worse boom we're

heading down and it's going fast and one

of the interesting things right if you

think about it you know it's one of the

modern phenomenon is speak everything's

speeding up we're all experiencing will

speed of the downward motion is not an

outward motion as things move up to

actually slow down right so when human

things are moving up things slow down we

start becoming more tranquil more

content know people are becoming more

anxious they're becoming more wired

right I mean we don't were not content

with 286 we want 386 now we want for it

now we want pentium now we want people

now this computer is to slow you know

this why can't this a fax machine work

faster what's going on I mean this is

and the problem concept and I get it to

a mini chef on speed is from Satan you

know so we would say that the ancients a

very very ancient people Abraham was

deeply deeply spiritually evolved


in a tent according to islamic tradition

and yet we believe that he was probably

one of the most enlightened and

spiritually aware human beings that has

ever existed he was also interesting how

life began according to the plan because

he asked God show me how you bring life

from the dead and God says don't you

believe Abraham and Abraham system in

the pond I believe but in order to give

some stillness to my heart I want to

witness it and God showed him how he

brought something from in a dead

inanimate to life so he was a scientist

from a Muslim perspective Abraham was a

scientist but he was a scientist that

wanted his science to increase his faith

to increase his closeness to God and and

what I see happening in the in the

modern world is the science is

distancing us from God it is a false

prophet and I believe in many ways that

that science now is in fact it is a type

of Antichrist the it is a false god and

people are taking it as a false god and

it promises it promises us salvation and

it will betray us in the end and it

might well be our destruction concerns

that the bowling center I excitement