Rihla 2013: Introduction to Logic

Transcript Details

Event Name: Rihla 2013: Introduction to Logic
Description: Introduction to Logic - Shaykh Hamza Yusuf 14 Episodes Based on the “Isagoge” of Imam Athir al-Din al-Abhari, this course will introduce students to the science of logic, a prerequisite before serious study of any of the other sciences. In this course students will be introduced to terms, concepts, the five predicables, definitions, propositions, opposition, conversion, syllogisms, and other basic aspects of correct thinking.
Transcription Date:Transcription Modified Date: 4/4/2019
Transcript Version: 1
Original Reference URL: Youtube Video

Transcript Text


some people have criticized him for that

statement and have said well then what

are you saying the selleth they didn't

know logic he actually says in another

place that in the early period their

minds were clear their minds were clear

and they were able to understand things

to make judgments about things and to

reason and argue in ways that were sound

he said but people's minds weakened and

this is a common motif in many cultures

the Golden Age it's it's the idea and

they're actually recently there was an

article written that the ancients were

smarter didn't anybody see that article

was an interesting article just arguing

that that people are actually less smart

now than they were 2,000 years ago we

have more tools now but if you actually

look at the average people and if all

you have to do is read read Euthyphro

you know or Meno you know read Meno you

know we you know Socrates takes a young

servant boy and basically gets him to

understand the Pythagorean theorem very

quickly something that you know in our

culture people go through 12 years of

mathematics and they're hard pressed to

explain that so I mean obviously it's

arguable that they had a teacher like

Socrates it probably would have been a

lot easier so so he says that logic

became necessary because people lost

that ability to reason soundly its

greatest benefit then derives from the

clarity of thought and sound reasoning

skills it engenders in one trained in


are coupled with more effective oral and

written communication it orders thought

it orders the mind much of people's

problems come from our inability to

define things right this is the

foundation or that my definition is the

only definition and you know and through

the looking-glass Humpty Dumpty tells

Alice you know she questions his

definition of word and he says it can

mean whatever I say it means and and the

man that wrote that book was a logician

and and both Alice in Wonderland and

Alice Through the Looking Glass are

dealing with world a world without logic

like he was showing what a world would

be like if we didn't have logic or

reason working the queen says off with

his head and now we'll have the trial

right and Alice says that doesn't make

sense where I come from we have the

trial first and then and she said no

here we do it the other way around

okay modern America so and then that the

topics now topics and subjects are

almost in our culture considered

synonyms but traditionally subjects and

and this is like genus and species a

topic can be a subject and then a

subject can be a topic so but but you

you you can look at it like a subject is

the overarching rubric and then the

topics are those things that fall under

so if we look at like the topic of

Graham the subject of grammar is a

kilometer avi Minaya and Rob will be now

all right so that that's that's like

basically what now

is about right and and so if you look at

the topics of grammar then the topics of

grammar are like the motherfu ad so you

have seven more four ads the mom so bad

you have 15 months so bad the three

maharat right so those are basically

those are topics so the illume be he is

a topic under the rubric of grammar all

right and and so when you look at the

topics of logic the topics of minor or

formal logic so that's called minor or

formal logic the lesser logic logic

Petite consists of simple apprehensions

so the simple apprehension is the

grasping of something you just grasp it

like you know a glass you see if you

grasp a glass all right then

once you grasp what a glass is then you

can bring another type of glass like

this is a wine glass okay but the genus

is glass the species is wine glass

because the difference is this one's

used for wine I mean obviously we're in

Turkey so it's a water glass but you

know in Western culture this is a wine

glass but the idea of a glass is you

grasp it as a simple concept and once

you have that concept if I say go get a

glass you can go to the kitchen and you

it doesn't matter what kind of glass you

understand the universal concept of

glass that's a simple apprehension and

so that's one of the most important

topics and then the concept where we

begin to understand the tesora at a

deeper level right it's it's it's a type

it's a it's an apprehension but the

simple apprehension is a foundation of a

concept and then the terms how we

articulate those what words we use like

see the concept of a glass right I call

this a glass in English but if I said to

I'm judge Mojave

I'm Jed being a Libyan would say today

he is Raja right so now we have a zoo

jaga what's the difference between a zoo

jaja and a glass the difference between

a zoo judge and a glass is that we use

different terms for the same concept so

the concept is universal and that's why

the concept proceeds whatever

articulation we use to describe it or

define it all right and that's why we

can call this many things in many

different languages but every single

person whether he's Arab or Chinese or

Hindu or a Pakistani or it doesn't

matter once he grasped this it doesn't

matter what word that you used to

describe it I mean it matters in terms

of being able to communicate it to

somebody but he still grasps it in his


because I can say how do you say glass

in Turkish

where's Yusef is he here huh Bardock

yeah ba doc so if I say how do you say

glass in Turkish and he says ba doc how

lost he he knows the concept because if

I just said to him you know teru kataoka

he said baduk he doesn't even have no

glass in English I can get that out of

him okay so the concept of glass in your

mind is called baduk that same concept

in my mind is called glass so the

universal concept is the simple

apprehension the term is what's called

the wushu the lovely that we use because

you have Houdini was you the hockey team

that's illusion of how PAP was you then

he was you lovely we should copy how you

write it right so these are different

types of existence that things have and

then there's an argument about whether

it exists in reality in the mind or is

it only real here are they different

that's a metaphysical problem

and and then you have definitions so the

definition the HUD right the own ashati

is knowing what the genus and the

difference is that's how you define it

and that's not always easy because it's

sometimes it's hard to differentiate

between a property and or an accident

and a difference so but this is how you

learn to define things you see what

because we need definitions so when we

talk about governments government is a

genus but it has different species or

species so you have democracy is a

species of government tyranny is a

species of government oligarchy is a

species of government and each one of

them the genus is government but what's

the difference so a tyranny the

difference is it's it's it's it's

absolute rule by Fiat there's there's no

process they just say what what what

they're going to do and they do in and

they implement it and if you have a

dictatorship usually it's one a one

dictator so a dictatorship is where one

person has an absolute power and

arbitrary rule you could do whatever he

wants off with his head so though that's

the way you define things is by knowing

so that's an important aspect in the

topics of logic and then divisions how

you divide them so wine glass is the

type of division there's other types of

glasses that you have right and then Cup

Cup is is its from it the same genus but

it's different from a glass right has a

handle right Arabic does this all fit

Aloha does this because Arabs are very

specific about things right and then

they wouldn't call this a cus cus it

cuts has to have something in it so now

that's a whole other thing right when

you have the vessel and then when

something's in it you describe it with a

different word and that's that's modal

logic that's something really Aristotle

doesn't that came later

you know modal logic is where you get

modalities chain

and then you have judgments so that

study propositions are the kebaya


is a judgment right and then there are

varieties because there's different

types you have you know you have their

different quality and quantity and so

there are different types of

propositions and then you have simple

compound affirmative negative

categorical hypothetical and modal so

like a categorical is John is here

it's categorical it's re there it's true

or its false but it's categorical if

it's nine o'clock then John is here

that's a conditional or a hypothetical

so if a then B a therefore B like that

and then with modal logic it's more like

it might be possible that John's arrived

right so and that's and that or it's

probable that he's here because it's

nine o'clock so that's that's modal

logic it's also there's there's a

because they have deductive inductive

and then you have Charles pierce

identified a third what he called

abductive reasoning which is this type

of reasoning it's like it's a type of

almost guessing but it's guessing when

there's reason there's reason or cause

for a for a judgment like that so and

then you have opposition and that's

there's a square of opposition and it's

the relationship between propositions so

yeah you know a universal affirmative

proposition a universal negative

proposition they call that a and E from

a firm oh and neg oh right affirming

something or negating something so all

animals you know all men are animals

right no angels are animals so one's a

universal of

and the others Universal negative but

then you have some animals our man right

you have that and so that's a particular

a particular where you're affirming and

then you have a particular where you're

negating and so those are that that's

how they work together and there's rules

that go with that so that's when you

learn the square of opposition you learn

the rules of those the contradictory the

the contraries the sub alt all turns and

then you have conversion which is

converting a subject and a predicate

just converting it so no animals are men

or no no angels are animals no animals

are angels just switching them around

and some things can convert and some

things can't

so reasoning then is the PS and that

involves the syllogism and it's

divisions like you have nineteen forms

or figures in the I what are called

moves and so there's different types of

syllogisms they're broken down out of

the nineteen an edge medina POV

identified ten in the quran out of the

nineteen that are used she identified

ten of the different syllogisms that are

used so the Perron definitely uses

they're over thirty arguments in the

quran that are using this type of logic

which interesting enough in the earlier

shadi period some of the upshot he's

wanted to argue that it was a jazz that

the month up in the quran was a jazz but

belani said no that's not part of their

a jazz of quran because humans are

capable of reasoning in that same way so

he didn't consider it acceptable as a as

a miracle of the Quran to say that and

then finally you have induction which

was developed it was first argued by


and in his Novum organum organ on which

was an attempt to rewrite aristotle

organon he was an anti Aristotelian and

then later in the 17th century mill who

was a very very influential person had

in many ways very positive effect on

society but in other ways a very

negative effect very very really

probably one of the most influential

human beings in history but a lot of

what we are in now is is Mills vision of

the world so then you have material or

major logic and that deals with the

contents of syllogisms and involves

categories so that you have ten

categories and we'll get into those like

substance you have the category of

substance and everything has to be a

substance if it's a thing God is not in

the ten categories but everything that

exists is in the ten categories so the

first one is is is about the essence of

it it's it's the johar this is what they

called the Johar in the Arabic tradition

and then you have the the nine accidents

so you have the quality so it's a big

ball it's a little ball talk about the

size of it and then you have the the

sari the quantity and then you so that's

come and then you have cave and then you

have the time the place the possession

the position these are all the the

categories that things fall under and

how we talk about things and then you

have what are called the five arts sorry

the five predicate bowls that I'd follow

the hamsa in the Arabic tradition and

this is the genus the species the

difference the property and the accident

so the Arabs called it the jinns which

is genus same root Jin's and then you

had the new art you have the fossil you

have the hasa and then you had the Arab

and and then you had the the five arts

which are the the Sunna at their humps

these are the ways that we are

you so you have for instance Bora Han is

one type of argument that is used and

he'll do that the ISA Gogi goes into

this at the end and then another

argument is with the the majora bat

that's an argument like arguing from

experiment and things like that so you

have you have axioms you know things

that are agreed upon and then you

know you argue ha baba is an argument in

Sabah is an argument so logical

fallacies are ways that people argue and

those are in the five arts because

sophistical reasoning is a tie it's a

it's a fin people learn it lawyers learn

it they know how to use it there's books

on how to effectively trick people they

study them in if you get a degree in

marketing you'll learn all about that

and then the topics the topics the topos

are you know the things that we use in

argument and this is one of the six

books that the Organon was called the

topics and this involves working with

the five predicate bowls things like

compare and contrast it's related to

rhetoric in that way and then the ystem

dad when you look at the esteemed at

what the ystem that is is what does it

derive its sources from yes the midterm

in Asia what's the method of the science

you mid to who what what's what gives it

it's the flow right the you know the the

mid will Jessa in Arabic is this a meta

forest and dad met and Jessa you have

the ebb and the flow so the tide ebbs it

goes out and then the Med is it comes in

so method is a Sufi terminology as well

right so the what what's giving it its

method what's giving it its flow what's

what's what's coming to give it its

power and so logic does not derive its

sources from any other science

so for instance v derives its sources

from Quran Sunnah hadith right PS these

are the sources each man logic doesn't

drive its source from any other science

it is the singular introductory science

and its sources are observation and

intuition logic is basic tools are

intuited concepts and concomitant

propositions that stem from them

concepts involve the minds abstraction

of universals from particulates which

enables definition propositions involved

composing or separating concepts in a

subject predicate form upon which

judgment is based these two operations

of the mind are how we reason

deductively are inductively in the third

act of the mind argument or

demonstration these three mental

operations are the sources of logic

which is essentially an analytical

inquiry into these acts of the mind

which enable us to reason soundly and

avoid the pitfalls common to an

untrained mind its sources and

foundations such as the laws of identity


and the excluded middle are rooted in

self-evident truths that is any truth

the opposite of which is impossible to

conceive so in in for the Americans here

you know one of the American Creed's one

of our common notions in the United

States is that all men are created equal

right that's in the Constitution in the

Declaration of Independence but what

does he say before that we hold these

truths to be self-evident so what he's

saying is it's us common notion it's a

self-evident truth a self-evident truth

is something the opposite of which is

inconceivable that's a self-evident

truth so that's an that's probably more

of a piece of rhetoric because it's not

so self-evident you have to define those

terms what do you mean by equality

because people are clearly some people

are faster than other people some people

are stronger than other people some

people are taller

some people are lighter darker people

aren't the same so you're using a

mathematical cons

and you're applying it in a sociological

sense which is very problematic right

but we can understand something

intuitively for us it's much easier for

us to say that it's self-evident because

we've been taught certain things in the

modern world that a lot of pre-modern

peoples didn't have but the Prophet SAW

I sent I would argue is the first person

to actually argue that an S of silesia

as nan and mission I don't think you'll

find any any person in human history

before the Prophet I would challenge

somebody to do that to show me a quote

because Aristotle the greatest mind of

the ancient world arguably said there

are people that are natural slaves

because of their inferiority to other

people and women are naturally inferior

to men and that was Aristotle's opinion

which was held by many many people

educated people all over the world for

centuries but the prophet saw I sent him

said no people are equal but they're

also not equal so he meant they were

equal in the eyes of God as human beings

but they are unequal in what they do and

so we're created equal were born equal

but we don't grow up equal right there

are people that that are more beneficial

than others and the prophets Eliza them

said that Hydra comb Hydra comb right

he said Heydrich o Muhammad Allah I'm

Fatima Ali he the best of you and and

those most beloved to God are those that

are most beneficial to his creation to

his dependents which are all these

things that depend on God so that just

means creation really everything but

humans are first and foremost the

dependents of God that most things are

just here to sustain and so

the those three laws are the are these

are the axioms of logic if you if you

don't accept them or understand them

you'll never understand logic so the

first one is the law of identity and the

law of identity is very simple it's

things are what they are right a is a

and a is not not a right there's double

negative a is not not a in other words a

is a so a thing is what it is an

identity right is something that's

identical something else is the same

so identity is your sameness right so

I'm Jed is not aside then we can

differentiate between the two even

though they're brothers they're not the

same they're different and Amjad can't

be Assad than Assad can't be em yet

that's a law of identity the law of

non-contradiction is related to the law

of identity and the law of the excluded

middle is also related that in fact the

law of non-contradiction the law of the

excluded middle some will argue that

they're the same thing and just looking

at from two perspective but there is a

subtle difference between the two but

the law of non-contradiction is simply

that something cannot be and not be at

the same time right something cannot you

know I'm Jed cannot be on Jed and aside

at the same time he's either I'm Jo

Dory's Assad one or the other I'm sorry

to use you as an example but you're

right in front of me so that and then

the law of excluded middle is arguing

that there's not a middle position where

it can be you know it that it's it's

it's either a or it's not a it has to be

one or the other so in in these three

laws of thought this is the foundation

of logic these are axioms so this is the

ystem dad is from intuitive now one of

the things I mentioned last night was

about quantum physics and where the laws

of logic

they break down well there is a law

called the law of the inclusive middle

which is exemplified in certain aspects

of quantum mechanics and the law of the

inclusive middle is also a Buddhist

concept in the Nagarjuna logic which is

an Indian logic that came out of

Buddhism they will argue for the

included middle so something can be

something and not be that thing at the

same time so a light can act as a

particle and a wave particles and waves

are two different things because a wave

is more like a line and a particle is

more like a point right and a point is

not a line a line is made up of points

but it's not a point right so if

something is a point in a line at the

same time then you've got included

middle it's not an exclusive middle

because it's a thing and it's it's

something else at the same time the

Ishod e's use this law of the included

middle in some of their formations and

that's why when you talk about God God

transcends logic he's outside of the

categories and there are certain logical

things that even though we use logic in

theology there are certain things where

it breaks down and what an example of

that is that God is neither create and

neither connected nor disconnected from

his creation so the ashati and logicians

the ashati muta caddy moon say that

allah is a halo with the sanam be hunky

he will hate him false in a nun who he's

neither connected nor disconnected don't

put him in either of those and the

reason for that is because both of them

are problematic so they suspended that

judgment and said that it's neither nor

in this case which is breaks the law of

the excluded middle and the law of

non-contradiction because if we say God

is connected to his creation then what

we're saying is

that the corruptable is part of the

incorruptible or the divine because we

know that creation is by its very nature

corruptible whereas if we say that he's

disconnected then we have a separate

existence beside God so so they chose to

say he is neither connected nor

disconnected this is a super irrational

if you like we're renting to into the

room we're out of Newtonian physics and

we're into quantum physics this this is

a different and these are murajjab and

woods not everything works in logic

logic breaks down but it works in the

realm of Shetty it works in the realm of

cause-and-effect that's here in reality

the majority of Muslims historically did

not believe in cause and effect and this

is even Tamiya one of even tamiya´s real

problems with a shoddy kaanum is that

the Saudis were arguing that what in the

West is attributed to malabon she was a

French Metta physician and they called

occasional ISM Hume also hints at this

although he wasn't an occasional s but

he did argue that we cannot in any way

we cannot assume you know if I do that

intuitively we say that the force of

this acting on this created that sound

what Hume argues is that that's just an

assumption we've seen it so many times

that we assume you know if a then B so

if if this hits this we get the sound he

said that's actually a type of fallacy

this therefore that right the probe

there hoc fallacy so he argues that

that's just the mind does that right to

be fair to the Ashanti's they did argue

that by Shetty there is cause and effect

but in Hakata

there isn't so again at the Newtonian

level they were arguing for Newtonian

law so if you push somebody onto an

oncoming train you caused his death

and you can't say oh there's no

cause-and-effect God did that I'm just a

suburb right you can't make that

argument in an Islamic Shetty out court

no you caused his death but if we look

at it from the istikhara the fit of the

actual action is an action of God he

enabled and that's why tophi occurs when

he enables you to do good killed 11 is

winning and enables you to do bad and

what you're doing is the cusp

so you're acquiring that so this is this

is the way our scholars interpreted and

arguably most of modern physics would

probably argue they're moving towards

that worldview cause and effect in fact

if anybody was following the accelerator

events that happened in burnin in

Switzerland did anybody follow that

right where they're actually seeing

these particles faster than the speed of

light I mean they're basically arguing

we're gonna have to throw cause and

effect out the window if this proves to

be true and they've replicated the

experiment several times so they're

really I mean they're saying it's

undermining so many of their principles

but primarily cause and effect so you

know but cause and effect is the realm

of Sharia but in how pika

most of our scholars argued that there

is no cause and effect there it only

appears that way that in reality every

act is an instantaneous creation whether

you're part of Yoruba Cikini when we

through who you're part of it's asking

if in the hula hope you wash up

hallelujah ba ba ba don't say that the

knife cuts don't say that the fire burns

because that there should be an

intermediary between God's actions and

the action itself the those of innermost

understanding deny that they say it's

impossible so this is an argument that

basically I mean we're getting into

theology a little bit but it's all

related this is the thing I mean we you

know in in the West they've recently

discovered what they call

interdisciplinary studies right

I mean Muslims were never they didn't

have separate disciplines in that way

they saw they had a unified

understanding of knowledge it's a

holistic understanding that all of these

knowledge is relate to each other but

they have what is is better called

transdisciplinary as opposed to

interdisciplinary it transcends the

separateness of these disciplines and

recognizes the interdependence of these

disciplines that that that they're all

really hovering around the same thing

which is existence I mean all everything

because logic is just about existence

it's we're talking about the world

that's why we use logic we're talking

about things in the world so it's all

about metaphysics in the end and

metaphysics you know the great questions

of metaphysics why is there a world

where did the world come from what are

we supposed to do while we're here in

the world and given that we see that the

world ends ie we end I mean the world

might go on but as far as we're

concerned we're gone what happens after

we go if anything these are metaphysical

questions and these are the only real

questions in the world all the other

things you know gee the price of

tomatoes what do you think about that I

mean that is not serious in the light of

your mortality right you know

you think the Yankees are gonna win this

year that is not a really important

question in the scheme of things but

these are the things that people

preoccupy themselves from the big

questions by being obsessed with the

little questions right small-mindedness

and then finally know we've got a few

more the founder and while there the

founder of something is the one that

posited it first and there you know

what's interesting is we had books well

he nodded and asked it he wrote a book

called Keith havin a lion which is a

book of all the first things that

happened like who you know who started

grammar like one day somebody was

sitting around thinking you know we say

these things and why are they in the

order that they're in and what's the

difference between this thing that we're

saying and this thing you know Oh hmm

this one relates to time whereas this

one doesn't

I mean somebody came up with these

things at some point reflected on them

and thought about them I mean Euclid if

you study Euclid it's where did he get

those ideas like whoa where why did they

start thinking about these thing where

did the Pythagorean theorem come from I

mean how did they work that out how did

that how did they how did they work out

the universal law of gravity I mean what

is that like an apple fell on his head

and that's it

I mean how did that well you know just

amazing insights so who's the first one

reasoning is elemental to the human

condition I mean people have been

reasoning as long as we've been here

thinking we're rational beings reasoning

is elemental the human kitchen we're all

gifted naturally with the powers of

reason that govern our action

everybody's doing things for reasons I'm

going to Turkey to study

I'm going to Turkey to have a good time

I'm going to Turkey to see the Topkapi

I'm going to Turkey to find a manuscript

I'm going to Turkey to visit Oh Elly I'm

going to Turkey to get married right

people go to places for reasons and if

they don't there we say they're nuts

like why are you here if you don't know

where you're going any road will get you

there why are you here

you know I'm I'm still thinking about it

haven't worked it out I'm that you can

be in that place as well I'm here

because my mom told me to come and

that's a reason your mom had a reason

you might not or your reason is you're

just being a good Muslim you know doing

what your mom said that's a reason so

according to Muslim sources logic as a

codified science was first developed by

the ancients and remained latent in

other words they hid it from people so

when you read the Muslim early Muslim

books of logic that's what they argue

that they kept it it was too dangerous

to teach people because it can be used

for good and evil

it's a dangerous art in that way because

it's a it's a powerful tool and if you

have this tool you can do a lot of good

with it but you can do a lot of evil and

sophis master this Sophists are our

masters of certain elements that are

found in this science and then Aristotle

who died in 322 I think he's born around

384 Aristotle recorded its rules to find

his terms and revealed its secrets he's

called Aristotle ease or at a stall

right in the Greek tradition he wrote

the six books known collectively as the

organ on which means the tool the Allah

and they're considered the first books

on logic and thus he is typically

considered the founder or the first

teacher of logic so he wrote this

organon that had this the categories the

ten categories he defines those and as a

book on interpretation de interpretación

a and then he's got the prior analytics

the posterior analytics he's got the

topics and then he's got the on

sophistical reasoning like how you can

argue the fallacies so in the Islamic

tradition and Farabi who dies in 961 or

350 and Hadera is considered the second

teacher they call them and Marana

Matheny and then Farabi was a great

intellect to a truly great intellect he

was he was once asked and there's

there's some humility but it's argue

that there's not a whole lot but he was

asked if if he would have had he been

alive at the time Aristotle would would

have he surpassed Aristotle he said no

but I would have been his best student

so so he basically introduced logic he

studied it here in Turkey and he

actually when he arrived in Holub he

arrived wearing Turkish clothes

Byzantine clothes this actually a

Turkish hat by the way this was a

Byzantine hat that the Muslims adopted

after they conquered Constantinople so

the fast they caught the fast in Morocco

the fast actually spread from Turkey but

anyway he he he went to to Aleppo and he

spoke 70 languages he was a master of

music he knew all the Mohammed and I

have a friend of mine from Nubia who's

Egyptian some you might know him but

Hamza Aladeen he was a good player

brilliant musician but he knew he knew

the mama likey - least he gave me the

book of Al Farabi because al música

kitab-o-moosa al kabir the big music

book and it's like it's this thick it's

the biggest book in my library single

book but he gave me that book and it's

all the Mohammed's

and in there are the secrets of music

the the which they used to use here in

Anatolia and and they still do as five

her dear still in Turkey people that

know the science of healing through

musical instruments the using the

Mohammed and they do this also in in

Morocco in there were Mary stands in

Andalusia Morocco Iraq where they would

treat people from with their mental

diseases they would treat them using

mom's to to try to re harmonize the

imbalances in the body through sound

because sound has an effect and this is

why people move when they when they hear

sound you know you have a startled

movement because it affects you the

sound affects you so sound is very

powerful which is why the code is so

powerful because the these are sacred

sounds that are affecting resonating in

you and that's why doing them either

even silent dhikr is is has that effect

also so anyway and Farabi when he went

to to Hannah

they came in and somebody you know they

were there a bunch of aluminum out there

they used to have the much this and the

ruler there was there and he asked him

if he knew anything no he he was he was

sitting in and one of the servants spoke

a dialect and he couldn't understand

what the ruler was saying and so Farabi

explained it to the servant and he said

oh do you do you speak their diet their

tongue and he said see who said they're

in Aloha

I can speak 70 languages and he said

Jesse no Shannon at arabiya

you know something about Arabic he said

you know test me out

and so the grammarian started talking to

him and finally they just said he's he's

ahead of all of us and then they fit

Papa has said you know and then he asked

him do you know anything about music he

said bring me a note so they brought him

in and

then he played til they all laughed and

then he played till they all cried and

then he put them to sleep so he knew and

which is one of the reasons why you know

Plato warned about music in the Republic

because of its effects on the soul and

some of the automatic prohibit music

argue it's because of the effects that

it has it's it's it's called te matua

Satyan which is not the thing in and of

itself but what the effects of the thing

and most musicians don't know what

they're doing how they're affecting

people's souls

so some music will drive people mad and

it's clear if you just see certain

concerts how people start behaving it's

the music that's doing it to them and

they might like it because it's a

Dionysian experience it's very ecstatic

and wild and out of the body but often

aided and abetted with illegal

substances but nonetheless it's very

dangerous and if you change the modes of

music you'll affect the whole culture so

great ships and culture happened when

musical shifts occur according to that

theory ethos theory

so later even Cena who died in 428 1037

attempted to provide for the Muslim

world what Aristotle did for the

Hellenic civilization and encyclopedic

work covering logic natural science

mathematics the metaphysics but and then

he the lot he wrote a book called the

Shiva which is very similar to the organ

on he has a section on the Iliad which

is theology and but it's basically an

organ on of logic and that key became

the basis for Arabic logic it has some

differences in its metaphysical

assumptions after mastering even Cena's

work Imam al-ghazali removed what he

deemed any objection 'el aspects of it

and then he wrote five works of varying

levels of difficulty

so America's Adi wrote these books on

logic to help students and I think the

most interesting of them is called it

estas and mu stopping which is where he

argues against a botany person and

esotericist he argues that the way you

judge is not through the imam assume

like some hidden occultic knowledge that

a teacher has but the way you judge is

is using the Crispus on mustaqim that he

says is in the quran and so he shows how

the Quran teaches you logic so he uses

that book as a book of logic but it's

only from the Quran a very interesting

book its relationship to other Sciences

its relation to other Sciences is that

of a universal to a particular as all

other Sciences are comprised of concepts

propositions and arguments so every

science has concepts you study grammar

there's concepts the verb is a concept

in grammar it has a definition right the

noun is a concept and then propositions

there are propositions in any science

and then there's reasoning also so you

make arguments based on your terms and

on your and on your propositions the

virtue and the right and it's called in

the West they call that liberal arts a

liberal art according to Aristotle a

liberal person a free man is somebody

who lives for his own sake a slave lives

for another sake which is why if your ad

the law you live for the sake of Allah

but if you're free to other people

you're not living for their sake you're

a free man in that way and and so the

the liberal arts are arts that are

studied for their own sake they're not

studied for like a vocational art so you

study some arts for others sake so

Aristotle and the Muslims would later

take this categorization have they have

productive arts practical arts and then

they have theoretical arts so the

productive arts are

things like carpentry you learn how to

make things that's a that's a productive

art and then you have the practical arts

that are beneficial like politics and

ethics or medicine right and then you

have the theoretical and he and in in

the modern world because of not

philosophical pragmatism but because of

moral pragmatism you know or or sorry

sociological pragmatism theoretical

sciences are seen really as a waste of

time but the ancients put them first and

foremost the highest Sciences were those

that were for their own sake like

theology it's it's not it's not studied

as a practical or a productive art it's

studied to know fandom no phanom right

know that there's no god but Allah just

know that I mean obviously there's

benefits but in essence it's to know

because you were created to know Maha

doctoring so agenda Eleni I'll go to an

eight Li a typhoon come apart even our

best to know me and to know him is to

love him and to love him is to worship

Him so in in the in the Muslim world

they were called illumined Anna the

instrumental arts these are arts that

help you understand and then you have

father to who or shut off ahora Tibet -

who all three are used the the the

virtue and rank is its rank in relation

to other Sciences and this is important

in terms of the hierarchical nature of

science Marathi balloon that we have

marked Tibet we are Marathi below Jude

Marathi balloon there-there's degrees of

knowledge and alumina silica and Monahan

I ask you for beneficial knowledge right

and in the Mayan felony the prophets

sought refuge in knowledge --is that

were not beneficial and then what's the

most beneficial knowledge the Omaha PI

you do some for war well I saw wound

to be hushirat that was the traditional

hierarchical nature of knowledge aha

Mahalo a kite the most important are

right thinking and then the next

metaphor what right action right

behavior how to behave properly from

meta so wolf right states were added to

be hushirat and a tool that you begin

with grammar logic and rhetoric so you

need those tools to begin the most

important obviously is via so given its

Universal benefit visa via other

Sciences logic is an overarching science

its subject matter concepts propositions

and arguments is integral to every other

science hence scholars have always

considered it a necessary propaedeutic

science and a means to sound knowledge

well as ends other sciences surpass

logic and rank so in terms of ends other

sciences are more important but in terms

of means it's one of the most important

so logic and rank its supreme virtue is

as a means that ensures intellectual

rigor in the pursuit of knowledge the

hokum ashada

is the final the legal category the

opinions of scholars can be categorized

as to those who consider the study of

logic Minh Dube recommended permitted

jazz or MOBA 3 a collective obligation

for casaya

and finally muharram prohibited the

first opinion recommended is that of

most theologians and legal theorists the

old Saudi scholars so the most kennyman

and little suebian

most of them argued that it was men do

and many of jurors including imam

al-ghazali according to one narration

even out of the great monarchy jurors

from tunis and OB great monarchy jurist

a Sanusi great monarchy jurist and this

is the sound disappear so according to

most scholars the second opinion is that

logic is permissible for those whose

intellect is sound and who have

knowledge of the book and the sooner

this is the opinion of Tuffy

Sukie he great chatty scholar from Syria

died in 7:56 1355 and the third opinion

is that it is an obligation this is the

opinion of ultimate act Annie they had

fought Aberdeen at foe pani he lived in

the room over him and they had Dean

attacked Annie so they were they were

both in teachers in the same madrasa and

they were both logicians so he

considered him watching as mentioned by

a jury and as our Connie in the chapter

on jihad because they always deal with

the Frederica fire in the chapters on

jihad some argued that the obligation

was individual because sound knowledge

of God relies upon sound reasoning and

others said it was collective because

the religion is made safe by protecting

its beliefs and that has to be done

through the use of reasoned this is the

opinion of Imam Lucy who he's called the

Ghazali of the West he was a great great

Moroccan scholar died in 1650 or 1060

Hadera and then of Imam al-ghazali and

is yeah so Imam al-ghazali there appears

to be two different opinions but given

how much emphasis he put on it it's

arguable that he saw it as a

failure for people that were working in

either Kalam or all salute film the

fourth opinion held by such formal

scholars is even Salah Imam and Noah we

Seop and even Samia is that

preoccupation with logic is prohibited

however our scholars concluded that what

they were actually prohibiting was not

logic per se but rather philosophical

logic specifically the metaphysical

foundations of it and the false

conclusions derived from them on the

contrary logic is none other than the

grammar of thought that's what they

called it Imam al-ghazali calls it the

now a knockin it's the grammar of the


just like now is the grammar of the

tongue he said it is to the intellect

what grammar is to the tongue and

furthermore and also our scholars

codified it and purified it of any

ungrounded epistemic speculations

contained in philosophical logic

furthermore given that the cause of the

prohibition was removed the effect

became null and void so the reason being

that in a legal ruling based on

Scholastic opinion a cause cannot be

disassociated from an effect in its

presence in its absence so in in the

Sharia and in the to to doodle and

manually Rubin were Adam and this is a

Qaeda and so when when the reason for

the thing is there the hokum is there

when the reason is no longer there the

ruling is no longer there so the reason

for its prohibition was philosophical

speculation if there's logic without

philosophical speculation then it gets

removed now I would argue and this is

for whatever it's worth my two cents I

would argue that for Part C for Western

students and people that are exposed to

a lot of these ideas that are out there

and their formidable ideas

post-modernism is real the academia is

filled with philosophical and

epistemological assumptions one of the

things that you'll find if you go into

studies in any of the social sciences or

Islamic studies for instance you'll find

that nominalism is the dominant approach

to their epistemology they do not

believe in essences anymore they don't

believe that human nature has an essence

which is why homosexuality is viewed you

know the dominant theory is a bundle

theory of human beings that were just a

bundle of contradictions neuroplasticity

that we move in and out of states that

we have no fixed essence there's it's

all accidents right so these are these

are ideas that you're going to be

confronted with in your life and you

might not be able to identify them

because you haven't studied them but

that you're being affected by them and

so I would argue that the enema today if

they really understood what was going on

and unfortunately a lot of our own AMA

there we have different types but the

majority of our

are just trying to hold on to to this

tradition as best they can and they're

not really engaging the intellectual

ideas of the world but one of the

obligations of scholars is rubbish

abides you cannot make a you know you

cannot deal with obfuscation 'z with all

of these philosophical problems if you

don't understand them I don't want to

hear somebody who has a degree in Shetty

I give me a legal ruling about evolution

I don't want to hear them do that I want

somebody who knows Islamic theology

really well and who knows evolutionary

biology really well at a very high level

I want to hear their opinion Imam

al-ghazali before he made judgments

about the philosophers he wrote a book

called Mufasa that a philosopher it's

it's a pretty neutral book he bases you

so here's what they say it was kind of

like during his time it would be like

philosophy for dummies and a lot of

other 'mo were really upset with him

because he made philosophy so clear that

even common people could understand it

so and these books for dummies are

written by experts in those fields very

often but what he did was he followed

that up with to half of them philosophy

so what he did first he showed them look

I know what you're talking about

here's why you're wrong we just say

here's why you're wrong

I don't really know what you're talking

about but here's why you're wrong that

that's the modern approach so we get

people you know and then we have people

that grapple with these issues and

unfortunately they evolve in the public

space sometimes we had a young scholar

from England who caused a bit of a stir

by saying he believed in evolution and

but he was a physicist you know he's

trained in the highest levels of science

and this in I'm talking about the West

in the Western which is now globalized

here as well it's everywhere and he had

some background in Islamic Sciences and

he's grappling with these issues I don't

think you should grapple with them in

the public space because people you

shake up common people you cause

problems and I think there's better ways

of doing that but these are problems of

our time and to simply just write them

off and not deal with them not

understand them

it's hard enough though to be fair it's

hard enough just to learn this tradition

on its own let alone learn another

tradition and that's why we really need

people of HT HOD people that are willing

to really struggle hard and work hard

too so that they can understand these

issues and and and provide guidance for

people because a lot of people are

confused we have lots of young Muslims

confused about evolution because they

study it and it's taught us fact you

know and you know like there's a man

here in Turkey that writes all these

books about evolution but they're not

going they're not going to convince

somebody at Cambridge or Harvard or I

mean they might be useful for simple

people that you're trying to protect

there's probably some validity to that

approach but in terms of really

grappling with these problems you need

really trained intellects and logic is

one of the tools that you need to be

fortified with and arguably symbolic

logic as well because that's very much

in the arsenal of the enemy any


so I could can you repeat the Muslim

understanding of transdisciplinary

knowledge and how we understand the

categories as opposed to and how it all

kind of this term that came from Piaget

back in the 70s

I like the IJ he's famous child

psychologist because I tested some of

these things on my own kids at the

appropriate age and they didn't work so

I know not totally convinced but he had

this idea of the holistic nature of

knowledge and transdisciplinary approach

is an approach that transcends the idea

of separateness in these so

interdisciplinary is working within

between disciplines so you

interdisciplinary studies will utilize

the tools of historical methodology you

know a sociological methodology might

bring in some of the hard sciences this

interdisciplinary transdisciplinary is

really recognizing that there is a meta

discipline that involves a holistic

understanding of the relationship of

knowledge --is that knowledge azar

related to each other

and this is this is extremely important

because Muslims really saw all knowledge

as facets on a diamond the diamond was

one and they really understood and

that's why when you get into later

scholastic tradition in Islam a good

example of that is Imam at about Judy

he's he's bringing in logic rhetoric

grammar theology fit it's all in one

book the book is primarily on logic or

or hadith or I mean he wrote on many

subjects he was mostly a wrote glosses

on other works but he's late tradition

so he had all the tools of the entire

tradition and you see that he's using

them all in a holistic approach and he

brings our old Intuit prosody and

amazing and and and so they didn't see

they saw all of these as working

together for enlightenment

that these were all tools for one thing

which is madatha and and and they were

all helpful towards that end is that is

that clear

why they don't believe in cause and

effect in the Ashanti school the reason

is because cause and effect if if we

accept that I can cause something or

that this can cause something that I am

giving this some kind of intrinsic power

and if I give it intrinsic power then

I'm giving something that is God's alone

la haula

well quwata illa billah' I'm giving

something that is intrinsically God's

alone and I'm attributing it to a

created thing and in that way it's a

type of it's sugarless about and so

what they argued was that in every

instant it's a new creation that home

feel absent Malkin jadeed in every

instant it's a new creation so to give

you a modern metaphor to understand this

if you've ever been in a theater when

the projector breaks down has anybody

ever had that experience when the

projector breaks down okay

now you have digital so it just all goes

crazy but in in the old days if you're

old enough to remember when they

actually had film what happens is

suddenly the frames you see the still

frames now between those still frames is

a dark space what happens is the the

projector is going so fast that it

appears to be a linear movement but in

reality their individual frames that are

frozen moving at a very fast speed

was called a magic lantern it was

invented in France and this is the

beginning of cinema and we little kids

if you ever did those little papers

where you draw the little stick men and

and then you flip them real fast and it

makes it kids love that because what

they're seeing is what it's an optical

illusion and the optical illusion is of

sync when Shiell linearity a moves to B

moves to C and it's a succession of

events according to the the dominant

opinion of the a shot ease what happens

is it's actually an on-off cycle and so

Allah is creating and destroying it's an

on/off so the that he's creating it in

each I mean we can't even say nanosecond

because we don't know that whatever time

that is it's some type of time but it's

so fast that it creates the illusion

that we feel like we're moving around

but in reality it's just one creation

and then it stops and then it's again

and then it stops so we're like those

stick men and Allah is making the thing

happen so when when the knife cuts it's

not really cutting Allah is creating an

opening so the knife is just a suburb

it's Allah who's actually recreating the

thing anew but now it's opening and then

blood and then so if you could see it if

if you had a you know what what what

Imam and Junaid called Fenna

you know annihilation if you had that

moment you'd go on to an on-off cycle

and you'd see that nothing exists that's

annihilation where you see that nothing

exists except Allah and that's why he's

a higher volume he's sustaining the

whole thing and that let her loose in

attune when unknown because if he if if

a moment of

of hafla took God the whole thing would

just disappear so his pal Mia you know

in one of the doors you know Hatta

Arafah you me Atticus Arrieta Fiji me

and maracas you know let me see your pal

Mia that's happening in every instant in

creation that Imam Ali said Mara yo

Shannon Laura it's Allah comin over

Wahiawa Bardo who I never saw anything

except I saw God in it before it in and

and after it meaning that he saw that

it's God that's doing all of this in

every instant and and and that's that is

what the position that most of the

scholars took which is arguably from

spiritual experiences that they had I

mean I find that very hard to believe in

a book on the atomic theory in history

which was written by a scholar from

England he argues that the Muslim atomic

theory is unique in the history of

civilization that nobody really came up

with that type of atomic theory before

and it's arguable that there's certain

theories now like string theory they're

very similar to to that type of

understand they're trying to work this

out there trying to get some theory of

everything that's going to explain these

four forces and how they interact and

but they don't have it because the

theory of everything is God you know and

if you're denying him how are you gonna

see him so go ahead

what's your name Cameron uh-huh sorry

come um I reckon yesterday you talked

about to define something you need to

conceptualize it right and I think the

Arabic word you use is the solver so

then how would we define God if we can't

conceptualize him and does everybody's

conceptualization differ yeah that's a

really good question the you know the

definition of God you can't put God in a

genus and you can't put them in a

species and that's why in the end our we

can't define God and and therefore we

use negative things so the argument

about is this called the via negativa in

the Latin tradition scholastic tradition

the Muslims call it the salvia right so

he has she fattest salvia the attributes

that negate the opposite so wushu does a

FIFA Neff SIA and that's why you judo at

wushu dine and mowjood and we'll get

into that when we get into the

categories and I'll explain that but

it's a good question so we don't we

don't we you know we can define God in

terms of our limited understanding of

how God has spoken about himself and

there's also rational definitions like a

Tamil Stephanie on it cool what coolin

moved to Peru aleyhi I mean that's one

definition the 20 attributes that you're

learning in Arpita is is another way of

really defining God but if you really

break it down it's working around what

is undefinable and that's why cool

mahaprabhu Vatika although he left with

Attica everything that occurs to the

mind God is other than that and so we

cannot in reality define Allah other

than how he has described himself so we

use our awesome and not had really the

descriptions that God has given us that

he is that he is fine that he is valued

that he is a party that he's a Lennie

that he's a Jabbar that he's medical

caduceus Raman

Mahima NIM how can we know him well in

the same way that there are things that

that you can grasp right without

definition so there are there are ways

of understanding God and grasping God

but in the end you'll you'll never know

his essence his essence is completely

unknowable and the only way you can know

him is through his see fat and the fat

in the end are our the the our scholars

don't use the term accident for God

because when we get into categories you

understand why but to see fats in

relation to that that are like the

vanilla hand method Ilana

they're like the accidents in relation

to the to their essence mm-hmm so I'm

like following from your previous

differentiation between concepts names

and subjects can a person believe in the

concept of God without using the name of

God or knowing that the subject of the

concept in which they believe in is God

I mean here you have people who say they

don't believe in God and you ask them

yeah do you believe in something and it

pretty much same yeah it's a good again

we get back to what you know what was

just talked about that when you say the

concept of God in reality we don't have

a concept of God we don't have a tussle

water what we have is a type of

understanding right there's a type of

modifier that we have and and that

modify has degrees at the most basic

level it's a man which is toss deal so

we know that that God is rajababu Jude

and and Rajeev is a concept who Jude as

a concept and that's why we know God

analogically like Allah SWA notices

LASIK Amitha t he shade

well who was Samia and bossy oh there

there is nothing like God so don't any

tough so what do you have got as other

than that and then it says and that was

called is Steph and yet and yet he hears

and he sees so how do we know hearing

and seeing

we know hearing and seeing because we

have hearing and seeing well via unfussy

comb after that tops your own in your

own selves don't you see so we can

conceptualize hearing and seeing but

when we relate that hearing and seeing

to God we have to get rid of any

conceptualization that it's like our

hearing and seeing LASIK emitted ishe so

there's no touch be in reality but you

know you have tangia and touch via but

you need to be to approximate this is

called terrible mani to approximate the

meanings alright so if somebody says I

don't believe in God

first you you need to define what they

don't believe in so you can say I don't

believe in this God that came down and

died for our sins you could say well I

don't believe in that God either so

we're both atheists of that God right

and then we can discuss other

understandings right but in the end we

you know alone RC Athena and I can't

accommodate an f ck we can't ever say

what you are we but we can only say what

you said about yourself go to Allah who

I had a low summit let me I did what I'm

you don't want to be kuku fauna had our

scholars say that negates the eight ways

that people fall in to shirk so those

are all negative approaches to God they

negate concepts of God who Allah who I

had that negates the concept that God is

plural or that he's composite right one

is not a number and this is one of

Euclid's in book in one of his books I

think it's book seven he says that that


it is that thing which we call one

that's a unit that's a Wagga and then he

said number is a multitude of units so

one is not a number every number is a

multiple of one but one is not a number

so when we talk about God we're saying

that he is one and that's negating Petra

and to add dude it negates the idea that

he's composite that he's made up of

parts so he's a simple reality simple I

mean by that there's no parts it's

infinite simplicity there's it's pure

oneness and then allow some odd that

negates the haja if T as knucks it

negates deficiency and ie so it negates

we can't conceive of God as needing

anything or having any blemishes

he's salam he's perfect sad in one

minute are you and then lemmya did what

amulet that negates Elna when luleå it

negates cause and effect

nothing caused God and God is not the

cause of anything in a cause-and-effect

relationship in other words that cause

and effect cannot be separated right so

we can't one of the things Aristotle his

problem with God he called him the prime

mover because he said that God is the

uncaused cause of all existence so we

say that God is the cause of existence

but we say it Maja's on we say it to say

that he's not not a cause do you see I

mean these are these are you were

getting into advance Kadam and it's you

know you really need a lot of

preparation to get into into these

concepts but God says being it is an

American failure kunu that fight is not

suburbia if it was suburbia it would be


he says kun fea Kuno be and it is so

there's no there's no God is is not

interacting in his creation in a cause

and effectual way in that way that

things are interacting with other things

in a cause-and-effect way Julia and then

when I'm your Kula Hawk of one I had Yin

fee a Shiva one of the year you know

that he could have shabeeha no not via

that he has a likeness or an opposite so

the devil in you know if you get into a

hora Mazda a hairy man and a hora Mazda

and do dual dualistic thinking the devil

is seen as a another of God you know

that there's a dark God and a light god

that's a dualistic Manichaean thinking

that's negated by that

so the pululahua had is the the via

negativa of our tradition it is the it

yes leave oh and you know and what Kufra

samanya it negates those eight types of

Kufa and that's why ever really

understands if Klaus understands so he'd

at least in at that level does that help

yeah it's is that valid though if the

person even believes in God or believes

in the concept in the way that you you

have described it but they don't know

what to be God that I mean is that

designation a lot to judge you know I

can't we can't you know what is doomed

wants them to be Aquabats like one of

the anonymous said you were said to call

people not to judge people only a lot

can judge people you know I can't I mean

if somebody is born into a house and

there's a little kid and they're

molested from the time they're like two

years old or something like that and and

they're so messed up and they end up on

drugs and and you know crack cocaine or

whatever I mean I'm not gonna judge that

person I mean that's for God to judge

that but I'm not gonna judge that person

you know so we're living in a world


the Sharia is judges if you're a father

you have to judge but the party should

judge with fear and trepidation and

that's why the Prophet said two parties

in hell one in Jena you should judge

with fear and trepidation so you know we

don't know people say they're atheists I

don't know what that means I don't know

what that means I don't know how what

led them to that point and what how

God's going to judge them one of the

things that I find interesting about

atheists and I think this has to be

appreciated by somehow is that they do

more thicker than God than most

believers and they just think about God

all the time

they write books about God every

conversation you get in with an atheist

within two minutes they're talking about

God it's amazing they just they're just

obsessed with God and in some ways their

opinion of God is so high that they end

up disbelieving in him you know it's

like if their opinion is so high that

they I can't believe in God I can't

believe in a God that will allow

pedophilia I can't believe in a guy you

know this these are the arguments along

to use it and who is it for me to say

that's a that's rubbish you're just

saying that you know there's certain you

know the cheese-and-cracker crowd you

know I mean you know having their wine

and you know I dunno how these people

can believe in God you know

really quite absurd they're imaginary

friends you know you know that kind of

there's a certain arrogance of those

type people but some of them people in

the greatest tribulation are are the

biggest believers I mean that's what's

so amazing about people in really

difficult dire circumstances and yet

they don't give up their faith in God

and they believe in a lots of behind

with data so you know there's there's

it's just not for us to judge people you

know and people can move in and out of

faith you know what you shouldn't feel

so secure about your faith you should

ask Allah for us to know ha tema and be

concerned about that I mean there's

Christians that have lost their faith

that's why these Christians say I asked

a Muslim they always doubt whether

they're going to heaven or not they

don't know but we know we're going to

heaven you don't know where there's

Christians that ended up leaving

Christianity becoming atheists Bart

Ehrman you know writing books why it's

not true and they were devout

fundamentalist Christians so people can

lose their faith Muslims lose their

faith there's people that lose their

faith in Islam you know but why and what

are the reasons and what led up to that

I don't know I mean there's people that

drive people out of Islam to prove its

allies that I'm said that he was the

advocate for the dimi that was

mistreated ano moppy amma like he's

gonna be his lawyer with god to say he

didn't he didn't see the real Islam he

was mistreated by Muslims he said that

on a huh small man other than me and

you'll know qiyama

I'm the advocate of a vim me on the day

of judgment so he's gonna actually say

don't judge him the way you would judge

somebody else cuz what happened to him

was it right so there's going to be

people in Mahmoud Abbas Adi says that if

Islam was presented in a distorted way

and somebody rejects it they're not

rejecting true Islam they're rejecting a

distortion and he says that he didn't

think they'd be taken to account for

that he says that and fights with a

taffeta cloud so

all right so any other questions I

didn't I've been kind of it's not when I

come I'm not sure if I've understood the

negatives but how would you then

reconcile for example what God says

about himself in terms of his

omnipotence and certain negatives for

example he cannot lie well like I said

what you have to what you have to

understand is that you can you can

conceptualize attributes but you can't

conceptualize the essence so we can have

a conceptualization of attributes of God

like we can conceptualize power but then

we have to recognize that that power is

not like our power but but the essence

of God you can't conceptualize it and

you can't define without conceptualizing

in essence and in that way the

definitions of God are all negative

definitions the work I think dr. Cleary

I mean dr. winter one of his contentions

is that theology is the search for the

least silly definition of God 22:22

yeah theology is the quest for the least

silly definition of God so I mean he's

pretty much saying the same thing that

we you know we define God but in the end

we're defining the undefinable so you

just always have to keep that in mind

that the Qaeda is leisa committed he che

that's the foundation of all Islamic

theology there's nothing like God

so his knowledge is not like our

knowledge but we have some approximation

of what that means because we have

knowledge like he put his attributes in

us in a limited temporal way we have

divine attributes speaking Kalam yada

some besar these are these are divine

attributes of God but there are only

approximations to for us to get a hint

at what that means

even the arkarow all the descriptions of

paradise in the Quran even a bath said

they said the Quran in the lace

virginity minute duniya Allah as smell

the only thing in paradise that's the

same as this world is the names so he's

saying the same thing even about the

creation of paradise it's male I know

and rats what are the known seminars

what I hopped on a puppy pusher jenna is

what no eye has seen no ear has heard

and no thought has ever been

conceptualized in the mind of a human if

that's about paradise then what is God

and that's just that's another creation

and we still can't conceive of it I was

guinness sorry kosher so based on this

logic is the tool by which we study all

the other sciences but it doesn't work

for Peter or we don't use it I mean much

about Peter laid our peda is it uses

logic a lot I mean for instance the

there are different bara Hien for the

existence of God the quran uses logic it

uses you know

ronita manor is a proof that God uses in

the Quran Borana topic for instance the

the idea that God is uncreated that you

can't have an infinite regress the

argument from contingency these are all

logical arguments and they're studied in

syllogistic form in the Muslim

scholastic tradition and they're you

know I mean most philosophers in the

West after Conte will argue that to use

a very hackneyed academic statement that

you can't really define you you can't

you can't prove the existence of God I

mean that's pretty much that's one of

Kant's arguments that you can't prove it

and that's even Tamia's argument as well

he argued against using logic with God

he just said it's waste of time and in

that way he's very content or can't it's

very tiny in or something like that so

but for me these are fifth oral

arguments the idea that something can

come from nothing is intuitively so it's

so against our fifth nature and so even

though quantum physics is trying to make

this argument now and there's people

like Stephen Hawking that are obsessed

with this and there's a recent slew of

books that have been written on this

subject that we've finally proven that

the universe can come from nothing you

know I don't know Allah says in surah

that calf that we didn't show you the

creation the beginning of it we need

even show the beginning of your own

creation you know so I that argument for

me is very you know but you know kundo

hadith and mahalo lucano hadith he then

had Kohima look you know that's the

argument in a really simplistic form but

the the argument for the cosmological

Kalam cosmological argument is arguably

the last argument Stan

I mean even most philosophers will have

to admit that all the arguments have

pretty much fallen by the wayside except

for the clam I mean there's some that

will argue the ontological argument is

still an argument but like the

teleological most philosophers will not

take that argument seriously

I personally teleological is very

convincing to me it certainly was a

traditional Muslim argument but the the

Kannamma cosmological argument which is

a very sophisticated argument that you

cannot have an actual infinity and by

that it means an infinity of discrete

number so you can't have an infinity of

discrete things and that if we say that

the universe is infinite then it's an

it's it's an infinity of discrete things

and that's impossible the alternative to

that is obviously pantheism or

panentheism which some people will argue

for that but the Muslims were not

pantheous if an auto b was not a

pantheist even though western scholars

don't worry antlerless scholars not not

even out of these scholars of late but

the earlier scholars people like

Nicholson and others they'll say that he

was a pantheist and that's only because

they don't have any other term in their

limited mind to describe some of his

articulations but he was