people of HT HOD people that are willing
to really struggle hard and work hard
too so that they can understand these
issues and and and provide guidance for
people because a lot of people are
confused we have lots of young Muslims
confused about evolution because they
study it and it's taught us fact you
know and you know like there's a man
here in Turkey that writes all these
books about evolution but they're not
going they're not going to convince
somebody at Cambridge or Harvard or I
mean they might be useful for simple
people that you're trying to protect
there's probably some validity to that
approach but in terms of really
grappling with these problems you need
really trained intellects and logic is
one of the tools that you need to be
fortified with and arguably symbolic
logic as well because that's very much
in the arsenal of the enemy any
questions
so I could can you repeat the Muslim
understanding of transdisciplinary
knowledge and how we understand the
categories as opposed to and how it all
kind of this term that came from Piaget
back in the 70s
I like the IJ he's famous child
psychologist because I tested some of
these things on my own kids at the
appropriate age and they didn't work so
I know not totally convinced but he had
this idea of the holistic nature of
knowledge and transdisciplinary approach
is an approach that transcends the idea
of separateness in these so
interdisciplinary is working within
between disciplines so you
interdisciplinary studies will utilize
the tools of historical methodology you
know a sociological methodology might
bring in some of the hard sciences this
interdisciplinary transdisciplinary is
really recognizing that there is a meta
discipline that involves a holistic
understanding of the relationship of
knowledge --is that knowledge azar
related to each other
and this is this is extremely important
because Muslims really saw all knowledge
as facets on a diamond the diamond was
one and they really understood and
that's why when you get into later
scholastic tradition in Islam a good
example of that is Imam at about Judy
he's he's bringing in logic rhetoric
grammar theology fit it's all in one
book the book is primarily on logic or
or hadith or I mean he wrote on many
subjects he was mostly a wrote glosses
on other works but he's late tradition
so he had all the tools of the entire
tradition and you see that he's using
them all in a holistic approach and he
brings our old Intuit prosody and
amazing and and and so they didn't see
they saw all of these as working
together for enlightenment
that these were all tools for one thing
which is madatha and and and they were
all helpful towards that end is that is
that clear
why they don't believe in cause and
effect in the Ashanti school the reason
is because cause and effect if if we
accept that I can cause something or
that this can cause something that I am
giving this some kind of intrinsic power
and if I give it intrinsic power then
I'm giving something that is God's alone
la haula
well quwata illa billah' I'm giving
something that is intrinsically God's
alone and I'm attributing it to a
created thing and in that way it's a
type of it's sugarless about and so
what they argued was that in every
instant it's a new creation that home
feel absent Malkin jadeed in every
instant it's a new creation so to give
you a modern metaphor to understand this
if you've ever been in a theater when
the projector breaks down has anybody
ever had that experience when the
projector breaks down okay
now you have digital so it just all goes
crazy but in in the old days if you're
old enough to remember when they
actually had film what happens is
suddenly the frames you see the still
frames now between those still frames is
a dark space what happens is the the
projector is going so fast that it
appears to be a linear movement but in
reality their individual frames that are
frozen moving at a very fast speed
was called a magic lantern it was
invented in France and this is the
beginning of cinema and we little kids
if you ever did those little papers
where you draw the little stick men and
and then you flip them real fast and it
makes it kids love that because what
they're seeing is what it's an optical
illusion and the optical illusion is of
sync when Shiell linearity a moves to B
moves to C and it's a succession of
events according to the the dominant
opinion of the a shot ease what happens
is it's actually an on-off cycle and so
Allah is creating and destroying it's an
on/off so the that he's creating it in
each I mean we can't even say nanosecond
because we don't know that whatever time
that is it's some type of time but it's
so fast that it creates the illusion
that we feel like we're moving around
but in reality it's just one creation
and then it stops and then it's again
and then it stops so we're like those
stick men and Allah is making the thing
happen so when when the knife cuts it's
not really cutting Allah is creating an
opening so the knife is just a suburb
it's Allah who's actually recreating the
thing anew but now it's opening and then
blood and then so if you could see it if
if you had a you know what what what
Imam and Junaid called Fenna
you know annihilation if you had that
moment you'd go on to an on-off cycle
and you'd see that nothing exists that's
annihilation where you see that nothing
exists except Allah and that's why he's
a higher volume he's sustaining the
whole thing and that let her loose in
attune when unknown because if he if if
a moment of
of hafla took God the whole thing would
just disappear so his pal Mia you know
in one of the doors you know Hatta
Arafah you me Atticus Arrieta Fiji me
and maracas you know let me see your pal
Mia that's happening in every instant in
creation that Imam Ali said Mara yo
Shannon Laura it's Allah comin over
Wahiawa Bardo who I never saw anything
except I saw God in it before it in and
and after it meaning that he saw that
it's God that's doing all of this in
every instant and and and that's that is
what the position that most of the
scholars took which is arguably from
spiritual experiences that they had I
mean I find that very hard to believe in
a book on the atomic theory in history
which was written by a scholar from
England he argues that the Muslim atomic
theory is unique in the history of
civilization that nobody really came up
with that type of atomic theory before
and it's arguable that there's certain
theories now like string theory they're
very similar to to that type of
understand they're trying to work this
out there trying to get some theory of
everything that's going to explain these
four forces and how they interact and
but they don't have it because the
theory of everything is God you know and
if you're denying him how are you gonna
see him so go ahead
what's your name Cameron uh-huh sorry
come um I reckon yesterday you talked
about to define something you need to
conceptualize it right and I think the
Arabic word you use is the solver so
then how would we define God if we can't
conceptualize him and does everybody's
conceptualization differ yeah that's a
really good question the you know the
definition of God you can't put God in a
genus and you can't put them in a
species and that's why in the end our we
can't define God and and therefore we
use negative things so the argument
about is this called the via negativa in
the Latin tradition scholastic tradition
the Muslims call it the salvia right so
he has she fattest salvia the attributes
that negate the opposite so wushu does a
FIFA Neff SIA and that's why you judo at
wushu dine and mowjood and we'll get
into that when we get into the
categories and I'll explain that but
it's a good question so we don't we
don't we you know we can define God in
terms of our limited understanding of
how God has spoken about himself and
there's also rational definitions like a
Tamil Stephanie on it cool what coolin
moved to Peru aleyhi I mean that's one
definition the 20 attributes that you're
learning in Arpita is is another way of
really defining God but if you really
break it down it's working around what
is undefinable and that's why cool
mahaprabhu Vatika although he left with
Attica everything that occurs to the
mind God is other than that and so we
cannot in reality define Allah other
than how he has described himself so we
use our awesome and not had really the
descriptions that God has given us that
he is that he is fine that he is valued
that he is a party that he's a Lennie
that he's a Jabbar that he's medical
caduceus Raman
Mahima NIM how can we know him well in
the same way that there are things that
that you can grasp right without
definition so there are there are ways
of understanding God and grasping God
but in the end you'll you'll never know
his essence his essence is completely
unknowable and the only way you can know
him is through his see fat and the fat
in the end are our the the our scholars
don't use the term accident for God
because when we get into categories you
understand why but to see fats in
relation to that that are like the
vanilla hand method Ilana
they're like the accidents in relation
to the to their essence mm-hmm so I'm
like following from your previous
differentiation between concepts names
and subjects can a person believe in the
concept of God without using the name of
God or knowing that the subject of the
concept in which they believe in is God
I mean here you have people who say they
don't believe in God and you ask them
yeah do you believe in something and it
pretty much same yeah it's a good again
we get back to what you know what was
just talked about that when you say the
concept of God in reality we don't have
a concept of God we don't have a tussle
water what we have is a type of
understanding right there's a type of
modifier that we have and and that
modify has degrees at the most basic
level it's a man which is toss deal so
we know that that God is rajababu Jude
and and Rajeev is a concept who Jude as
a concept and that's why we know God
analogically like Allah SWA notices
LASIK Amitha t he shade
well who was Samia and bossy oh there
there is nothing like God so don't any
tough so what do you have got as other
than that and then it says and that was
called is Steph and yet and yet he hears
and he sees so how do we know hearing
and seeing
we know hearing and seeing because we
have hearing and seeing well via unfussy
comb after that tops your own in your
own selves don't you see so we can
conceptualize hearing and seeing but
when we relate that hearing and seeing
to God we have to get rid of any
conceptualization that it's like our
hearing and seeing LASIK emitted ishe so
there's no touch be in reality but you
know you have tangia and touch via but
you need to be to approximate this is
called terrible mani to approximate the
meanings alright so if somebody says I
don't believe in God
first you you need to define what they
don't believe in so you can say I don't
believe in this God that came down and
died for our sins you could say well I
don't believe in that God either so
we're both atheists of that God right
and then we can discuss other
understandings right but in the end we
you know alone RC Athena and I can't
accommodate an f ck we can't ever say
what you are we but we can only say what
you said about yourself go to Allah who
I had a low summit let me I did what I'm
you don't want to be kuku fauna had our
scholars say that negates the eight ways
that people fall in to shirk so those
are all negative approaches to God they
negate concepts of God who Allah who I
had that negates the concept that God is
plural or that he's composite right one
is not a number and this is one of
Euclid's in book in one of his books I
think it's book seven he says that that
you
it is that thing which we call one
that's a unit that's a Wagga and then he
said number is a multitude of units so
one is not a number every number is a
multiple of one but one is not a number
so when we talk about God we're saying
that he is one and that's negating Petra
and to add dude it negates the idea that
he's composite that he's made up of
parts so he's a simple reality simple I
mean by that there's no parts it's
infinite simplicity there's it's pure
oneness and then allow some odd that
negates the haja if T as knucks it
negates deficiency and ie so it negates
we can't conceive of God as needing
anything or having any blemishes
he's salam he's perfect sad in one
minute are you and then lemmya did what
amulet that negates Elna when luleå it
negates cause and effect
nothing caused God and God is not the
cause of anything in a cause-and-effect
relationship in other words that cause
and effect cannot be separated right so
we can't one of the things Aristotle his
problem with God he called him the prime
mover because he said that God is the
uncaused cause of all existence so we
say that God is the cause of existence
but we say it Maja's on we say it to say
that he's not not a cause do you see I
mean these are these are you were
getting into advance Kadam and it's you
know you really need a lot of
preparation to get into into these
concepts but God says being it is an
American failure kunu that fight is not
suburbia if it was suburbia it would be
Mizzou
he says kun fea Kuno be and it is so
there's no there's no God is is not
interacting in his creation in a cause
and effectual way in that way that
things are interacting with other things
in a cause-and-effect way Julia and then
when I'm your Kula Hawk of one I had Yin
fee a Shiva one of the year you know
that he could have shabeeha no not via
that he has a likeness or an opposite so
the devil in you know if you get into a
hora Mazda a hairy man and a hora Mazda
and do dual dualistic thinking the devil
is seen as a another of God you know
that there's a dark God and a light god
that's a dualistic Manichaean thinking
that's negated by that
so the pululahua had is the the via
negativa of our tradition it is the it
yes leave oh and you know and what Kufra
samanya it negates those eight types of
Kufa and that's why ever really
understands if Klaus understands so he'd
at least in at that level does that help
yeah it's is that valid though if the
person even believes in God or believes
in the concept in the way that you you
have described it but they don't know
what to be God that I mean is that
designation a lot to judge you know I
can't we can't you know what is doomed
wants them to be Aquabats like one of
the anonymous said you were said to call
people not to judge people only a lot
can judge people you know I can't I mean
if somebody is born into a house and
there's a little kid and they're
molested from the time they're like two
years old or something like that and and
they're so messed up and they end up on
drugs and and you know crack cocaine or
whatever I mean I'm not gonna judge that
person I mean that's for God to judge
that but I'm not gonna judge that person
you know so we're living in a world
where
the Sharia is judges if you're a father
you have to judge but the party should
judge with fear and trepidation and
that's why the Prophet said two parties
in hell one in Jena you should judge
with fear and trepidation so you know we
don't know people say they're atheists I
don't know what that means I don't know
what that means I don't know how what
led them to that point and what how
God's going to judge them one of the
things that I find interesting about
atheists and I think this has to be
appreciated by somehow is that they do
more thicker than God than most
believers and they just think about God
all the time
they write books about God every
conversation you get in with an atheist
within two minutes they're talking about
God it's amazing they just they're just
obsessed with God and in some ways their
opinion of God is so high that they end
up disbelieving in him you know it's
like if their opinion is so high that
they I can't believe in God I can't
believe in a God that will allow
pedophilia I can't believe in a guy you
know this these are the arguments along
to use it and who is it for me to say
that's a that's rubbish you're just
saying that you know there's certain you
know the cheese-and-cracker crowd you
know I mean you know having their wine
and you know I dunno how these people
can believe in God you know
really quite absurd they're imaginary
friends you know you know that kind of
there's a certain arrogance of those
type people but some of them people in
the greatest tribulation are are the
biggest believers I mean that's what's
so amazing about people in really
difficult dire circumstances and yet
they don't give up their faith in God
and they believe in a lots of behind
with data so you know there's there's
it's just not for us to judge people you
know and people can move in and out of
faith you know what you shouldn't feel
so secure about your faith you should
ask Allah for us to know ha tema and be
concerned about that I mean there's
Christians that have lost their faith
that's why these Christians say I asked
a Muslim they always doubt whether
they're going to heaven or not they
don't know but we know we're going to
heaven you don't know where there's
Christians that ended up leaving
Christianity becoming atheists Bart
Ehrman you know writing books why it's
not true and they were devout
fundamentalist Christians so people can
lose their faith Muslims lose their
faith there's people that lose their
faith in Islam you know but why and what
are the reasons and what led up to that
I don't know I mean there's people that
drive people out of Islam to prove its
allies that I'm said that he was the
advocate for the dimi that was
mistreated ano moppy amma like he's
gonna be his lawyer with god to say he
didn't he didn't see the real Islam he
was mistreated by Muslims he said that
on a huh small man other than me and
you'll know qiyama
I'm the advocate of a vim me on the day
of judgment so he's gonna actually say
don't judge him the way you would judge
somebody else cuz what happened to him
was it right so there's going to be
people in Mahmoud Abbas Adi says that if
Islam was presented in a distorted way
and somebody rejects it they're not
rejecting true Islam they're rejecting a
distortion and he says that he didn't
think they'd be taken to account for
that he says that and fights with a
taffeta cloud so
all right so any other questions I
didn't I've been kind of it's not when I
come I'm not sure if I've understood the
negatives but how would you then
reconcile for example what God says
about himself in terms of his
omnipotence and certain negatives for
example he cannot lie well like I said
what you have to what you have to
understand is that you can you can
conceptualize attributes but you can't
conceptualize the essence so we can have
a conceptualization of attributes of God
like we can conceptualize power but then
we have to recognize that that power is
not like our power but but the essence
of God you can't conceptualize it and
you can't define without conceptualizing
in essence and in that way the
definitions of God are all negative
definitions the work I think dr. Cleary
I mean dr. winter one of his contentions
is that theology is the search for the
least silly definition of God 22:22
yeah theology is the quest for the least
silly definition of God so I mean he's
pretty much saying the same thing that
we you know we define God but in the end
we're defining the undefinable so you
just always have to keep that in mind
that the Qaeda is leisa committed he che
that's the foundation of all Islamic
theology there's nothing like God
so his knowledge is not like our
knowledge but we have some approximation
of what that means because we have
knowledge like he put his attributes in
us in a limited temporal way we have
divine attributes speaking Kalam yada
some besar these are these are divine
attributes of God but there are only
approximations to for us to get a hint
at what that means
even the arkarow all the descriptions of
paradise in the Quran even a bath said
they said the Quran in the lace
virginity minute duniya Allah as smell
the only thing in paradise that's the
same as this world is the names so he's
saying the same thing even about the
creation of paradise it's male I know
and rats what are the known seminars
what I hopped on a puppy pusher jenna is
what no eye has seen no ear has heard
and no thought has ever been
conceptualized in the mind of a human if
that's about paradise then what is God
and that's just that's another creation
and we still can't conceive of it I was
guinness sorry kosher so based on this
logic is the tool by which we study all
the other sciences but it doesn't work
for Peter or we don't use it I mean much
about Peter laid our peda is it uses
logic a lot I mean for instance the
there are different bara Hien for the
existence of God the quran uses logic it
uses you know
ronita manor is a proof that God uses in
the Quran Borana topic for instance the
the idea that God is uncreated that you
can't have an infinite regress the
argument from contingency these are all
logical arguments and they're studied in
syllogistic form in the Muslim
scholastic tradition and they're you
know I mean most philosophers in the
West after Conte will argue that to use
a very hackneyed academic statement that
you can't really define you you can't
you can't prove the existence of God I
mean that's pretty much that's one of
Kant's arguments that you can't prove it
and that's even Tamia's argument as well
he argued against using logic with God
he just said it's waste of time and in
that way he's very content or can't it's
very tiny in or something like that so
but for me these are fifth oral
arguments the idea that something can
come from nothing is intuitively so it's
so against our fifth nature and so even
though quantum physics is trying to make
this argument now and there's people
like Stephen Hawking that are obsessed
with this and there's a recent slew of
books that have been written on this
subject that we've finally proven that
the universe can come from nothing you
know I don't know Allah says in surah
that calf that we didn't show you the
creation the beginning of it we need
even show the beginning of your own
creation you know so I that argument for
me is very you know but you know kundo
hadith and mahalo lucano hadith he then
had Kohima look you know that's the
argument in a really simplistic form but
the the argument for the cosmological
Kalam cosmological argument is arguably
the last argument Stan
I mean even most philosophers will have
to admit that all the arguments have
pretty much fallen by the wayside except
for the clam I mean there's some that
will argue the ontological argument is
still an argument but like the
teleological most philosophers will not
take that argument seriously
I personally teleological is very
convincing to me it certainly was a
traditional Muslim argument but the the
Kannamma cosmological argument which is
a very sophisticated argument that you
cannot have an actual infinity and by
that it means an infinity of discrete
number so you can't have an infinity of
discrete things and that if we say that
the universe is infinite then it's an
it's it's an infinity of discrete things
and that's impossible the alternative to
that is obviously pantheism or
panentheism which some people will argue
for that but the Muslims were not
pantheous if an auto b was not a
pantheist even though western scholars
don't worry antlerless scholars not not
even out of these scholars of late but
the earlier scholars people like
Nicholson and others they'll say that he
was a pantheist and that's only because
they don't have any other term in their
limited mind to describe some of his
articulations but he was